Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Sādhaka »

Meido wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:46 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 pm Zen/Chan may explain some channels or cakras similar to more outer-level Taoism; but not nearly as detailed & specific as Indian & ZhangZhung Buddha/Bön-Yoga.
Of course Zen has its own teachings RE these things, and what is practically meant by the oft-repeated (in Zen training halls) slogans that Zen is a path "accomplished through the body," that "one cannot wash off blood with blood," that "the entire universe is the true human body," that "realization must penetrate even to one's bones," etc.

I have no idea what "outer-level Taoism" means here, as I have never practiced under a Daoist teacher and so could not presume to comment.

Of course Zen - like Japanese mikkyo (Shingon, Tendai, Shugen) - lacks the same understanding of channels and chakras that developed in later vajrayana.

Respect.

For all I know Zen is a complete path for liberation in one lifetime, maybe despite arguments here doubting that....

I had more of a karmic connection to Zen as a youth, but these days I’m more drawn towards Indian and ZhangZhung Dharma.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Astus »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:09 pmBuddha recollection will not result in Buddhahood in one life. Yoga does.
Do you mean anybody who did yoga - whatever that means - once for ten minutes attains buddhahood in this life? Or if one does yoga very well for thirty years, buddhahood is guaranteed to happen then? Because those who faithfully recite the name of Amitabha even just ten times are guaranteed to be born in Sukhavati, and once there, buddhahood is guaranteed as well, no fall back possible. So although one may practise yoga throughout one's life, unless buddhahood was actually attained, one should still aim to be born in Sukhavati.

As Thrangu Rinpoche says in chapter 12 of Luminous Clarity:

'To be reborn in most of the great pure realms, one needs an immeasurable store of merit. There is an exception to this, however, which is the pure realm of Sukhavati. Although it is hard to get in to an authentic pure realm, it is easy to be born into the realm of Sukhavati because of the aspiration of the Buddha Amitabha. So Karma Chagme advises us to make the intense aspiration to achieve rebirth in Sukhavati because if we are not born in a pure realm, then we might be reborn in one of the higher realms within samsara, which is still samsara. So we wish to achieve awakening through the practice of the generation and completion stages and the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Astus wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:09 pmBuddha recollection will not result in Buddhahood in one life. Yoga does.
Do you mean anybody who did yoga - whatever that means - once for ten minutes attains buddhahood in this life? Or if one does yoga very well for thirty years, buddhahood is guaranteed to happen then? Because those who faithfully recite the name of Amitabha even just ten times are guaranteed to be born in Sukhavati, and once there, buddhahood is guaranteed as well, no fall back possible. So although one may practise yoga throughout one's life, unless buddhahood was actually attained, one should still aim to be born in Sukhavati.

As Thrangu Rinpoche says in chapter 12 of Luminous Clarity:

'To be reborn in most of the great pure realms, one needs an immeasurable store of merit. There is an exception to this, however, which is the pure realm of Sukhavati. Although it is hard to get in to an authentic pure realm, it is easy to be born into the realm of Sukhavati because of the aspiration of the Buddha Amitabha. So Karma Chagme advises us to make the intense aspiration to achieve rebirth in Sukhavati because if we are not born in a pure realm, then we might be reborn in one of the higher realms within samsara, which is still samsara. So we wish to achieve awakening through the practice of the generation and completion stages and the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'
Yes, Sukhavati is supreme, however practitioners of vajrayana (if they did their practice well enough) achieve liberation in bardo after death. Ofc, sukhavati is always here for us and most vajrayanists aspire to be reborn there, or in Padmasambhava's pure land or wherever their master is.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Meido wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:46 pm
Of course Zen - like Japanese mikkyo (Shingon, Tendai, Shugen) - lacks the same understanding of channels and chakras that developed in later vajrayana.
To put it succinctly, the reason we have four empowerments in HYT is that we have what are called the four mandalas: the nāḍīs, nāḍī syllables, bindu, and vāyu.

The dependent origination of the human body begins with the ālayavijñāna mounted upon what is known as the "great prāṇavāyu" merging with the reproductive material of a male and a female. The mind is not differentiable from the vāyu (aka winds or airs) in any meaningful way. Thus, the newly formed zygote is shaped through the internal movement of vāyu/mind and its movement forms nāḍis in the body, which are in the form of syllables, filled with bindus, that are propelled by vāyu over the process of human gestation.

The shape of our body, our perception of the world, our thoughts, afflictive disposition and so on is largely governed by this anatomy. So, to recap: based on conception there is the mandala of vāyu; based on the reproductive material of the parents, there is the mandala of bindu. Based on the formation of knots (grantha) in the naḍīs, there are syllables. And finally, based on the full development of the human body there is the external structure of the nāḍī system, which one should understand as the arteries, blood vessels, and nervous system in the human body, These nāḍīs contain the other three elements, the syllables, bindus, and vāyus. The four empowerments are the purifier of the basis purification, these four mandalas. If we fail to attain buddhahood during the empowerment, then we have the method of practicing sadhanas with the creation and completion stage. The creation stage has two parts: the outer creation stage and the inner creation stage. The outer creation stage purifies afflictions of our bardo experiences, conceptions, gestations and deaths from beginningless lifetime, and all the activities of daily life, eating, sleeping, wearing clothes, sex, etc. The inner creation acts as a purifier for the four mandalas described above. However, creation stage is not sufficient for buddhahood, though it is sufficient for awakening on the impure bhumis. For buddhahood, one needs to practice the completion stage practices with its prāṇāyāma practices, sexual yogas [which frankly are a lot of work and not really that erotic], etc., because the creation stage is largely a conceptual samadhi framework, unifying appearance and emptiness, while the completion stage is what takes one beyond mind with nonconceptual samadhi of clarity and emptiness, bliss and emptiness, and great bliss and emptiness, also known as the connate. The completion stage is how one enters the state called sahajajñāna or mahāmudra.

Cakras in the body are places where arteries, nerves, and blood vessels all work together to produce various major functions in the body: the brain for example is understood to govern sense cognition, hence it is called the mahasukha cakra, the cakra of great bliss. The throat cakra governs speech, swallowing, and so on, hence it is called the sambogacakra. The heart cakra governs consciousness and circulation, hence it is called the dharmacakra; the navel cakra governs metabolism and the development of the body, hence it is called the nirmanacakra, and there is another mahāsukha cakra in the genital region that governs reproduction.

The crown cakra represents the nirmankāya and is the basis for its realization; the throat cakra represents the sambhogakāya and is the basis for its realization. The heart cakra represents the dharmak̄ya and governs it realization. The navel cakra represents the svabhavakāya, and governs its realization. The four empowerments condition these four cakras and plant the seed of the four kāyas in them.

The knots formed in the nạ̄dīs because of our karma and affliction govern how we perceive the world. For example, there is a nāḍī in the body, which, if one's vāyu gets "stuck" there, will cause one to experience the world as a preta experiences the world. The idea here is that all of our experience of the six lokas is actually predicated on our bodies and how it is formed. Therefore, the way to prevent rebirth in the six lokas is to purify all causes for rebirth in the six lokas through understanding the dependent origination of the body.

All of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction. Therefore, the Buddha has taught us that the fastest way to eliminate all karma and affliction as well as is traces is to use the body as our method. Not only that, but through the use of physical bliss, and various types of prāṇāyāma, one can rapidly induce profound samadhis that in sūtric contexts take not only years to develop but lifetimes, because the process of advancing on the paths and stages over many lifetimes corresponds to a bodhisattva taking birth in more and more refined bodies until such bodhisattvas cease taking birth in upper half of the desire realm at all after the eighth bhumiu is realized. This process of constant rebirth is bypassed in Vajrayāna, because in Vajrayāna one works directly with the dependent origination of the body inwardly, not outwardly. It is for this reason that Vajrayāna asserts its superior ability to lead a superior practitioner to full buddhahood, characterized as freedom and omniscience, within a single lifetime. Rather than predicating its practice on renunciation; Vajrayāna predicates its approach on transformation; therefore, Vajrayāna practitioners do not need to abandon using meat, alcohol, sexual activity, etc., as they must in common Mahayāna. These activities are all transformed in the context of the sadhana practice. The process of attaining buddhahood is based on the increasingly subtle states of samadhi which are cultivated in each of the completion stage practices, which are connected with the process of straightening the knots of the nāḍīs, then purifying the bindus, and finally, working with the vāyu mandala in the end. The samadhi associated with these three stages of completion practice are increasingly more subtle. While a consort, whether physical or visualized, is not necessary for the first of these three phases, in many Vajrayāna systems it is argued that one is needed for the final two phases of completion stage practice if one is to attain buddhahood in this life. Also the consort has to be the same level of practitioner as oneself. For example, an unawakened bodhisattva cannot have an awakened consort, and vice versa. Some Vajrayānas systems however claim that such a consort is not needed at all. So there are some arguments about this issue.

Thus, the whole point of this kind of HYT practice, to put it plainly, is to reverse dependent origination of the body/mind complex in toto through practices that are directly based on the anatomy of the human body, understood through how it develops in the process of gestation.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:51 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:31 pm
I won't lie, but I did have a response to that effect. I try to give tantra the benefit of the doubt though. "We use the body for practice" is a difficult statement because it is so vague.
Yes, my post was meant to address any ambiguities about what this means.
Most practice, generally speaking, is embodied. "We use the passions for practice" seems more like a tantric slogan, but that is as a non-tantrika outsider looking in.

Is "We use the body for practice" a slogan because of Vajrayāna's preoccupation with āyurveda and working with the subtle body? In that case, "We use the subtle body for practice" might be more accurate.
There is really no such thing as a "subtle body." This term is a western term.

Everything in the body is made of the five elements, there is nothing in the body that is not composed from the five elements.
When people speak of the gandharva as a body of "subtle form" one acquires in the antarabhava, is "subtle" a Westernism or are they translating something?
The body of a gandharva is principally formed of vāyu/mind. It is a so called "mental body." But even the body of a bardo being is made of five elements; because all of the elements contain the other elements.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'[/i]
The easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:50 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:51 pm

Yes, my post was meant to address any ambiguities about what this means.



There is really no such thing as a "subtle body." This term is a western term.

Everything in the body is made of the five elements, there is nothing in the body that is not composed from the five elements.
When people speak of the gandharva as a body of "subtle form" one acquires in the antarabhava, is "subtle" a Westernism or are they translating something?
The body of a gandharva is principally formed of vāyu/mind. It is a so called "mental body." But even the body of a bardo being is made of five elements; because all of the elements contain the other elements.
So I take it that mind is your fifth element when you say this, not akash.

What is akash in your tradition, to the degree that the answer is exoteric?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:50 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:54 pm
When people speak of the gandharva as a body of "subtle form" one acquires in the antarabhava, is "subtle" a Westernism or are they translating something?
The body of a gandharva is principally formed of vāyu/mind. It is a so called "mental body." But even the body of a bardo being is made of five elements; because all of the elements contain the other elements.
So I take it that mind is your fifth element when you say this, not akash.

What is akash in your tradition, to the degree that the answer is exoteric?
Space is the fifth element.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:08 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:50 pm

The body of a gandharva is principally formed of vāyu/mind. It is a so called "mental body." But even the body of a bardo being is made of five elements; because all of the elements contain the other elements.
So I take it that mind is your fifth element when you say this, not akash.

What is akash in your tradition, to the degree that the answer is exoteric?
Space is the fifth element.
Okay. Well, you've got to be slower with me in particular then. When you said "because all of the elements contain the other elements," you were counting mind, right? That is how the "mind-made" gandharva can contain the other elements, I presumed.

I am familiar with a six-element system: earth, water, fire, air, space, mind.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:08 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:01 pm
So I take it that mind is your fifth element when you say this, not akash.

What is akash in your tradition, to the degree that the answer is exoteric?
Space is the fifth element.
Okay. Well, you've got to be slower with me in particular then. When you said "because all of the elements contain the other elements," you were counting mind, right? That is how the "mind-made" gandharva can contain the other elements, I presumed.

I am familiar with a six-element system: earth, water, fire, air, space, mind.
No, I was only counting the five elements, space through earth.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:45 pm
Meido wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:46 pm
Of course Zen - like Japanese mikkyo (Shingon, Tendai, Shugen) - lacks the same understanding of channels and chakras that developed in later vajrayana.
To put it succinctly, the reason we have four empowerments in HYT is that we have what are called the four mandalas: the nāḍīs, nāḍī syllables, bindu, and vāyu.

The dependent origination of the human body begins with the ālayavijñāna mounted upon what is known as the "great prāṇavāyu" merging with the reproductive material of a male and a female. The mind is not differentiable from the vāyu (aka winds or airs) in any meaningful way. Thus, the newly formed zygote is shaped through the internal movement of vāyu/mind and its movement forms nāḍis in the body, which are in the form of syllables, filled with bindus, that are propelled by vāyu over the process of human gestation.

The shape of our body, our perception of the world, our thoughts, afflictive disposition and so on is largely governed by this anatomy. So, to recap: based on conception there is the mandala of vāyu; based on the reproductive material of the parents, there is the mandala of bindu. Based on the formation of knots (grantha) in the naḍīs, there are syllables. And finally, based on the full development of the human body there is the external structure of the nāḍī system, which one should understand as the arteries, blood vessels, and nervous system in the human body, These nāḍīs contain the other three elements, the syllables, bindus, and vāyus. The four empowerments are the purifier of the basis purification, these four mandalas. If we fail to attain buddhahood during the empowerment, then we have the method of practicing sadhanas with the creation and completion stage. The creation stage has two parts: the outer creation stage and the inner creation stage. The outer creation stage purifies afflictions of our bardo experiences, conceptions, gestations and deaths from beginningless lifetime, and all the activities of daily life, eating, sleeping, wearing clothes, sex, etc. The inner creation acts as a purifier for the four mandalas described above. However, creation stage is not sufficient for buddhahood, though it is sufficient for awakening on the impure bhumis. For buddhahood, one needs to practice the completion stage practices with its prāṇāyāma practices, sexual yogas [which frankly are a lot of work and not really that erotic], etc., because the creation stage is largely a conceptual samadhi framework, unifying appearance and emptiness, while the completion stage is what takes one beyond mind with nonconceptual samadhi of clarity and emptiness, bliss and emptiness, and great bliss and emptiness, also known as the connate. The completion stage is how one enters the state called sahajajñāna or mahāmudra.

Cakras in the body are places where arteries, nerves, and blood vessels all work together to produce various major functions in the body: the brain for example is understood to govern sense cognition, hence it is called the mahasukha cakra, the cakra of great bliss. The throat cakra governs speech, swallowing, and so on, hence it is called the sambogacakra. The heart cakra governs consciousness and circulation, hence it is called the dharmacakra; the navel cakra governs metabolism and the development of the body, hence it is called the nirmanacakra, and there is another mahāsukha cakra in the genital region that governs reproduction.

The crown cakra represents the nirmankāya and is the basis for its realization; the throat cakra represents the sambhogakāya and is the basis for its realization. The heart cakra represents the dharmak̄ya and governs it realization. The navel cakra represents the svabhavakāya, and governs its realization. The four empowerments condition these four cakras and plant the seed of the four kāyas in them.

The knots formed in the nạ̄dīs because of our karma and affliction govern how we perceive the world. For example, there is a nāḍī in the body, which, if one's vāyu gets "stuck" there, will cause one to experience the world as a preta experiences the world. The idea here is that all of our experience of the six lokas is actually predicated on our bodies and how it is formed. Therefore, the way to prevent rebirth in the six lokas is to purify all causes for rebirth in the six lokas through understanding the dependent origination of the body.

All of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction. Therefore, the Buddha has taught us that the fastest way to eliminate all karma and affliction as well as is traces is to use the body as our method. Not only that, but through the use of physical bliss, and various types of prāṇāyāma, one can rapidly induce profound samadhis that in sūtric contexts take not only years to develop but lifetimes, because the process of advancing on the paths and stages over many lifetimes corresponds to a bodhisattva taking birth in more and more refined bodies until such bodhisattvas cease taking birth in upper half of the desire realm at all after the eighth bhumiu is realized. This process of constant rebirth is bypassed in Vajrayāna, because in Vajrayāna one works directly with the dependent origination of the body inwardly, not outwardly. It is for this reason that Vajrayāna asserts its superior ability to lead a superior practitioner to full buddhahood, characterized as freedom and omniscience, within a single lifetime. Rather than predicating its practice on renunciation; Vajrayāna predicates its approach on transformation; therefore, Vajrayāna practitioners do not need to abandon using meat, alcohol, sexual activity, etc., as they must in common Mahayāna. These activities are all transformed in the context of the sadhana practice. The process of attaining buddhahood is based on the increasingly subtle states of samadhi which are cultivated in each of the completion stage practices, which are connected with the process of straightening the knots of the nāḍīs, then purifying the bindus, and finally, working with the vāyu mandala in the end. The samadhi associated with these three stages of completion practice are increasingly more subtle. While a consort, whether physical or visualized, is not necessary for the first of these three phases, in many Vajrayāna systems it is argued that one is needed for the final two phases of completion stage practice if one is to attain buddhahood in this life. Also the consort has to be the same level of practitioner as oneself. For example, an unawakened bodhisattva cannot have an awakened consort, and vice versa. Some Vajrayānas systems however claim that such a consort is not needed at all. So there are some arguments about this issue.

Thus, the whole point of this kind of HYT practice, to put it plainly, is to reverse dependent origination of the body/mind complex in toto through practices that are directly based on the anatomy of the human body, understood through how it develops in the process of gestation.
This was quite interesting and accessible. Thank you for taking the time to elucidate it so wonderfully.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:55 pmThe easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.
Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:45 pmAll of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction.
Actually stored as physical elements, or some version of avijnapti-rupa, or is it more like there is a correlation between the alayavijnana and the body?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:45 pmAll of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction.
Actually stored as physical elements, or some version of avijnapti-rupa, or is it more like there is a correlation between the alayavijnana and the body?
As kinks and knots in our channels.
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:55 pmThe easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.
Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?
You will have go and learn dzogchen teachings.
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LastLegend
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by LastLegend »

Astus wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:55 pmThe easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.
Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?
You are being a jerk.
It’s eye blinking.
Natan
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Natan »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:38 pm
Astus wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:55 pmThe easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.
Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?
You are being a jerk.
Not a jerk. The cause is empowerment and nature of the instructions.
Natan
Posts: 3704
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Natan »

Astus wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:09 pmBuddha recollection will not result in Buddhahood in one life. Yoga does.
Do you mean anybody who did yoga - whatever that means - once for ten minutes attains buddhahood in this life? Or if one does yoga very well for thirty years, buddhahood is guaranteed to happen then? Because those who faithfully recite the name of Amitabha even just ten times are guaranteed to be born in Sukhavati, and once there, buddhahood is guaranteed as well, no fall back possible. So although one may practise yoga throughout one's life, unless buddhahood was actually attained, one should still aim to be born in Sukhavati.

As Thrangu Rinpoche says in chapter 12 of Luminous Clarity:

'To be reborn in most of the great pure realms, one needs an immeasurable store of merit. There is an exception to this, however, which is the pure realm of Sukhavati. Although it is hard to get in to an authentic pure realm, it is easy to be born into the realm of Sukhavati because of the aspiration of the Buddha Amitabha. So Karma Chagme advises us to make the intense aspiration to achieve rebirth in Sukhavati because if we are not born in a pure realm, then we might be reborn in one of the higher realms within samsara, which is still samsara. So we wish to achieve awakening through the practice of the generation and completion stages and the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'
Pure lands are said to be 500 super long times or so. I mean the yoga of two stages, yoga of rushen, etc. It is done as a teacher explains.
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LastLegend
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Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by LastLegend »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:46 pm
LastLegend wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:38 pm
Astus wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:18 pm

Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?
You are being a jerk.
Not a jerk. The cause is empowerment and nature of the instructions.
To Astus, but my mind is f up so it spilled over to others and they picked it up.
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:49 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:09 pmBuddha recollection will not result in Buddhahood in one life. Yoga does.
Do you mean anybody who did yoga - whatever that means - once for ten minutes attains buddhahood in this life? Or if one does yoga very well for thirty years, buddhahood is guaranteed to happen then? Because those who faithfully recite the name of Amitabha even just ten times are guaranteed to be born in Sukhavati, and once there, buddhahood is guaranteed as well, no fall back possible. So although one may practise yoga throughout one's life, unless buddhahood was actually attained, one should still aim to be born in Sukhavati.

As Thrangu Rinpoche says in chapter 12 of Luminous Clarity:

'To be reborn in most of the great pure realms, one needs an immeasurable store of merit. There is an exception to this, however, which is the pure realm of Sukhavati. Although it is hard to get in to an authentic pure realm, it is easy to be born into the realm of Sukhavati because of the aspiration of the Buddha Amitabha. So Karma Chagme advises us to make the intense aspiration to achieve rebirth in Sukhavati because if we are not born in a pure realm, then we might be reborn in one of the higher realms within samsara, which is still samsara. So we wish to achieve awakening through the practice of the generation and completion stages and the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'
Pure lands are said to be 500 super long times or so. I mean the yoga of two stages, yoga of rushen, etc. It is done as a teacher explains.
Yes, when taking birth in the pure lands, there is no guarantee one will take rebirth in an open lotus. And even then, it takes thousands upon thousands of human years ( I figured it out once and reported the lenght of time somewhere in this board) to attain awakening. By contrast, Dzogchen teachings promise that if one takes birth in the pure lands as a result of having encountered and understood Dzogchen teachings, full awakening, buddhahood, will happen there in as little as 500 human years.
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