I think it’s pretty reasonable too.PeterC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pmThe thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.Simon E. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:41 am Actually what I was addressing was not so much wrong views as views attributed to anonymous teachers.
All schools of the Mahayana are pretty much based on the authority of teachers. Live or dead. Those lines of authority need to be clear and checkable. When we are simply giving our own subjective experiences or thoughts (which can be interesting and useful) we need to be clear that’s what they are. Or so it seems to me.
I think it’s reasonable and indeed a norm of this community that people can be challenged to state their grounds in an argument. I thunk it’s also reasonable to tell people politely if they’re being disruptive or digressing, and to report to mods if they persist. But that’s just my personal opinion.
Genuine advice sought.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
And if memory serves Dan you have a very ambivilant attitude to any kind of dissonance on the forum. On the one hand you are keen to smother it with a fire blanket and on the other hand you seek it out like a shark reacting to a small drop of blood in the water.Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.
I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.
If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge them from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums
On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
I would have been utterly astonished if you hadn’t responded to this thread.
Having said that your description of my habitual donning of the war bonnet is painfully accurate.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
This isn't a good idea, because it means talking about teachings that are restricted, and should not be talked about openly like this, just like ChNN said many times. A "closed forum" doesn't work, simply due to the fact that there are site managers and site admins that have access to everything. If one wants to talk about these things which Fa Dao suggests, it should be between ones teachers and ones close Vajra family which also received these things. But not on an Internet forum.Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:52 pmI'm sure forum admins can do that.Fa Dao wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pmHey Dan,Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.
I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.
If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge the menace from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums
On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
I didnt know we could do that. So for example I could start a Dzogchen Longde forum that couldnt be read by the general public? and only accessible to those that are students of Namkhai Norbu and have had that transmission?
There is of course an existing thread for the Dzogchen Community, but if there is a real reason why a closed one is needed (e.g. avoiding disclosing matters than are or should not be in the public domain) then I encourage you (and others) to lobby to that.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Mixed feelings...very attractive, but very difficult in terms of the overall modding of the forum.Fa Dao wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:45 pmHey Dan,Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.
I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.
If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge the menace from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums
On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
I didnt know we could do that. So for example I could start a Dzogchen Longde forum that couldnt be read by the general public? and only accessible to those that are students of Namkhai Norbu and have had that transmission?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Not sure why people don’t get it’s not an easy journey. Alluding to days when people feel annoyed by others’ behavior and there are days they feel peaceful and calm they don’t care. I don’t understand why they don’t owe the responsibility instead of putting on others whom they think cause their reactions.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Something for both of us to bring into the fold of practice, perhaps..Simon E. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:13 pmAnd if memory serves Dan you have a very ambivilant attitude to any kind of dissonance on the forum. On the one hand you are keen to smother it with a fire blanket and on the other hand you seek it out like a shark reacting to a small drop of blood in the water.Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.
I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.
If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge them from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums
On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
I would have been utterly astonished if you hadn’t responded to this thread.
Having said that your description of my habitual donning of the war bonnet is painfully accurate.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Right. This is something that a community like yours should discuss, get teacher's advice on and then if it's appropriate, perhaps a forum could be host it. Or not, if not. Ultimately the aim of a place like this is to serve the Dharma, so whatever works..Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:17 pmThis isn't a good idea, because it means talking about teachings that are restricted, and should not be talked about openly like this, just like ChNN said many times. A "closed forum" doesn't work, simply due to the fact that there are site managers and site admins that have access to everything. If one wants to talk about these things which Fa Dao suggests, it should be between ones teachers and ones close Vajra family which also received these things. But not on an Internet forum.Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:52 pmI'm sure forum admins can do that.
There is of course an existing thread for the Dzogchen Community, but if there is a real reason why a closed one is needed (e.g. avoiding disclosing matters than are or should not be in the public domain) then I encourage you (and others) to lobby to that.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Genuine advice sought.
I am not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that every action is karma and will come seek us. Action on the forum is no exception.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
PeterC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Experiences are mind; mind is relative.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Just a small step back from there and you’re in the territory of “everything’s equally valid”. There is a difference between the authority of canonical texts and recognized masters, and the opinion of anyone who knows how to access the internetMatt J wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:52 pm I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
PeterC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Indeed.Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:31 pmSomething for both of us to bring into the fold of practice, perhaps..Simon E. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:13 pmAnd if memory serves Dan you have a very ambivilant attitude to any kind of dissonance on the forum. On the one hand you are keen to smother it with a fire blanket and on the other hand you seek it out like a shark reacting to a small drop of blood in the water.Dan74 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:19 pm People have teachers and talk crap and people don't have teachers and talk crap.
I think here most people take what's written with a grain of salt, regardless of professed credentials. "Ignore" function is very useful too.
If memory serves, you create a thread like this with respect to users who get your goat, every few years, Simon, waging a campaign on multiple fronts to expunge them from the forum. It must be a special kind of karma to be reborn as a Dharmapala of Buddhist Forums
On the other hand, it's possible to create subfora open only to people with certain requirements, like being current and active students within certain lineages.
I would have been utterly astonished if you hadn’t responded to this thread.
Having said that your description of my habitual donning of the war bonnet is painfully accurate.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Official authority may not be a guarantee of realisation, but an absence of official authority in certain traditions, particularly Vajrayana including Dzogchen is a real issue and problem in my view. In the absence of such clear indicators of authority I for one am not inclined to give much weight to proffered opinions. ‘Experience’ can be the result of faulty learning, mindset, or as Scrooge observes to Marley’s ghost ‘ a morsel of undigested cheese’.Matt J wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:52 pm I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.
PeterC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm The thin maroon line separating useful discussion of the Dharma from solipsistic speculation is clarity around sources of authority. I think we generally do well here on forcing people to justify their claims through some sort of authority - whether textual, instruction from teachers, or otherwise “my experience”, which of course we can ignore freely.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Which would include making claims to a non existent teacher. Or jumping into threads we don’t understand because we are verbally incontinent.LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:50 pm I am not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that every action is karma and will come seek us. Action on the forum is no exception.
So let’s hope no one does that..
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Experience is one thing, what is learned from it in retrospect another.
One thing I have noticed is that navigating these things with compassion allows for expression and the ability to recognize subtle signs of self throughout the process.
Very hard to gracefully elucidate these things and almost impossible in lay life.
There is a particular and important aspect to the sounding board and collective of minds here.
There is always an aspect of dharma that challenges my understanding in a good way. I can't imagine it happening the same way without the interactive component.
One thing I have noticed is that navigating these things with compassion allows for expression and the ability to recognize subtle signs of self throughout the process.
Very hard to gracefully elucidate these things and almost impossible in lay life.
There is a particular and important aspect to the sounding board and collective of minds here.
There is always an aspect of dharma that challenges my understanding in a good way. I can't imagine it happening the same way without the interactive component.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
The most compassionate person I have ever met ( and I am NOT comparing myself to him in any respect at all) would have thrown you out of the window of a skyscraper if he knew you would become realised before you hit the ground.
Ruthless compassion. Uncompromising compassion.
Ruthless compassion. Uncompromising compassion.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Fair enough and I tend to air on the side of empathetic which can be problematic.Simon E. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:04 pm The most compassionate person I have ever met ( and I am NOT comparing myself to him in any respect at all) would have thrown you out of the window of a skyscraper if he knew you would become realised before you hit the ground.
Ruthless compassion. Uncompromising compassion.
I think it is reasonable however to say hey there is even upside in the downside here being it is a matter of perspective.
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Genuine advice sought.
People are really idiots after spending 40 years or so that they can’t understand anything for themselves. You don’t need a f teacher to tell you stop searching and stop accumulating all these learning and studying from authorial sources or whatever and only to confuse yourself. Maybe I am just a lazy and lousy practitioner, I don’t f need to do shit. People talk about teachers yet teachers are not always present, so they really owe themselves a responsibility to get this shit down. They are too busy bickering about shit instead of reading wtf is being communicated. frak annoying yet running around complaining annoyances from others.
It’s eye blinking.
Re: Genuine advice sought.
You think you are being helpful by having a meltdown?LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:13 pm People are really idiots after spending 40 years or so that they can’t understand anything for themselves. You don’t need a f teacher to tell you stop searching and stop accumulating all these learning and studying from authorial sources or whatever and only to confuse yourself. Maybe I am just a lazy and lousy practitioner, I don’t f need to do shit. People talk about teachers yet teachers are not always present, so they really owe themselves a responsibility to get this shit down. They are too busy bickering about shit instead of reading wtf is being communicated. frak annoying yet running around complaining annoyances from others.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- LastLegend
- Posts: 5408
- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia
Re: Genuine advice sought.
Yes I’ve melted!Grigoris wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:22 pmYou think you are being helpful by having a meltdown?LastLegend wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:13 pm People are really idiots after spending 40 years or so that they can’t understand anything for themselves. You don’t need a f teacher to tell you stop searching and stop accumulating all these learning and studying from authorial sources or whatever and only to confuse yourself. Maybe I am just a lazy and lousy practitioner, I don’t f need to do shit. People talk about teachers yet teachers are not always present, so they really owe themselves a responsibility to get this shit down. They are too busy bickering about shit instead of reading wtf is being communicated. frak annoying yet running around complaining annoyances from others.
It’s eye blinking.