Rigpa and Alayavijnana

[haha]

But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?

I have the opinion that experienced teacher can help you to distinguish them. It can be distinguished: one can know this is mind, this is mental factors, this is bhavanga, this is alaya, this is sensation, this is wisdom, this is cessation, etc. There is demarcation to distinguish them.

Your opinion is not shared by Vimalamitra.

That is fine.
The point is whether they are distinguishable or not. Yes, they are.

[Malcolm]

I have the opinion that experienced teacher can help you to distinguish them. It can be distinguished: one can know this is mind, this is mental factors, this is bhavanga, this is alaya, this is sensation, this is wisdom, this is cessation, etc. There is demarcation to distinguish them.

Your opinion is not shared by Vimalamitra.

That is fine.
The point is whether they are distinguishable or not. Yes, they are.

The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness. How then do you suppose it can be distinguished?

[haha]

Your opinion is not shared by Vimalamitra.

That is fine.
The point is whether they are distinguishable or not. Yes, they are.

The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness. How then do you suppose it can be distinguished?

If someone (for a yogi) has learned to enter into the trance state and does not have knowledge, he or she is more likely to enter into the alaya. For common people experience, it is the dreamless sleep. Nirvikalpa samadhi is also included in it.

[Malcolm]

That is fine.
The point is whether they are distinguishable or not. Yes, they are.

The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness. How then do you suppose it can be distinguished?

If someone (for a yogi) has learned to enter into the trance state and does not have knowledge, he or she is more likely to enter into the alaya. For common people experience, it is the dreamless sleep. Nirvikalpa samadhi is also included in it.

You didn’t answer the question.

[haha]

The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness. How then do you suppose it can be distinguished?

If someone (for a yogi) has learned to enter into the trance state and does not have knowledge, he or she is more likely to enter into the alaya. For common people experience, it is the dreamless sleep. Nirvikalpa samadhi is also included in it.

You didn’t answer the question.

It can be distinguish by wisdom (pranja) or knowledge (jnana).

[Malcolm]

If someone (for a yogi) has learned to enter into the trance state and does not have knowledge, he or she is more likely to enter into the alaya. For common people experience, it is the dreamless sleep. Nirvikalpa samadhi is also included in it.

You didn’t answer the question.

It can be distinguish by wisdom (pranja) or knowledge (jnana).

Not by an ordinary sentient being, only by a buddha. Why? Because the ālayavijñāna is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness.

Ālaya is actually just a name for ignorance, in the system of Dzogchen. And this is made extremely clear in all the commentaries that bear on the issue.

But perhaps what you mean to refer to is the ālaya, aka the nature of the mind, which is the inseparable clarity and emptiness taught in the Kagyu and Sakyapa schools. If this is the case, while clarity of course can be recognized, this is not the ālaya being spoken of in Dzogchen teachings, which is the subject of this discussion.

In this case, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can only be differentiated or distinguished by a person who attains complete and total buddhahood in this life, at the time they attain complete and total buddhahood. This is discussed somewhat extensively by Vimalamitra in his commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra.

[Misty]

"The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness."

Are the teachings on the alaya used as an illustration to help us see, recognize and understand how we relate to things/objects when our consciousness is influenced by the knowledge obscuration? if so, What is the cognizing consciousness of this process called?

[Malcolm]

"The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness."

Are the teachings on the alaya used as an illustration to help us see, recognize and understand how we relate to things/objects when our consciousness is influenced by the knowledge obscuration? if so, What is the cognizing consciousness of this process called?

In the system of yogacāra, there are seven cognizing consciousnesses: the five physical sense consciousnesses; mental consciousness; and afflicted consciousness, which apprehends phenomena as "I or mine." The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings.

[Misty]

Thank you

[Misty]

"In the system of yogacāra, there are seven cognizing consciousnesses: the five physical sense consciousnesses; mental consciousness; and afflicted consciousness, which apprehends phenomena as "I or mine." The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings."

Do these traces influence our current moment experience?
if so, In Dzogchen, is it this influence that is being discarded?
In other practices, is it this influence that is being purified?

[Tolya M]

Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.

The AV is 1st and 2nd Noble Truths as Asanga said. It can't be the vidya. It is defiled portion of paratantra with no end apart from Buddhadharma.

Just to clarify - in yogacara, since the alaya transforms into gnosis, doe this mean the trikaya are not present from the beginning? Is this a denial of Buddhanature in yogacara?

There is no actual trikaya in beings. Tathagatagarbha is not actual trikaya. It is "garbha". Like dirt water has a only-potential to be clean. After receiving srutavasana from the utterly pure (ativisuddha) Dharmadhatu [teachings], this seed of Dharmakaya is mixed with AV like water and milk until it fully developes by training in three higher trainings and expels it's defiled portion. It takes 3 asamkheya kalpas in the best and fastest way for bodhisattvas. Zeros will not fit the line if I put it in numbers )) As I understand Dzogchen do it completely from the other side. There is no AV in the beginning because of "direct introduction". It is like the skandha-complex is melted directly from vidya wich is already opposite to samsara. There is no such idea in Yogacara. It moves step-by-step.

[haha]

Now, it made sense why you said no. Thanks for that.

[the.eleven]

"The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness."

Are the teachings on the alaya used as an illustration to help us see, recognize and understand how we relate to things/objects when our consciousness is influenced by the knowledge obscuration? if so, What is the cognizing consciousness of this process called?

In the system of yogacāra, there are seven cognizing consciousnesses: the five physical sense consciousnesses; mental consciousness; and afflicted consciousness, which apprehends phenomena as "I or mine." The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings.

The above discussion is especially helpful and affirming!

Assuming that the ālayavijñā has no cognitive function, cannot be perceived by sentient beings, and is a repository of traces crested by the other consciousnesses, how could we characterize the mechanism by which this ālayavijñā affects the consciousness of any sentient being who is not a fully awakened buddha?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Assuming that the ālayavijñā has no cognitive function, cannot be perceived by sentient beings, and is a repository of traces crested by the other consciousnesses, how could we characterize the mechanism by which this ālayavijñā affects the consciousness of any sentient being who is not a fully awakened buddha?

It’s the ground from which the weeds and flowers of karma sprout.

Also habits.

[Lazuli]

" The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings."

Could one not perceive these "traces" during lucid dreaming?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

" The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings."

Could one not perceive these "traces" during lucid dreaming?

The traces grow into your body, environment, mental dispositions (including political persuasions) and such. In other words you and your life.

[Malcolm]

" The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings."

Could one not perceive these "traces" during lucid dreaming?

No, not directly.

[Misty]

At what point does the manifestation of these traces become a noticeable object for discernment?

I went through a period of high situational stress that had an ill effect on my health. Through some guided help I learned to notice the first signs, chest tightness, kind of like, situational cues triggering body or muscle memory. Is this an example of the first possible identifiers? or is this something totally different from what is represented here?

[Natan]

Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.

No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.

A potential requires a cause to become an effect, a realized potential. Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect. So I am thinking there must be another term besides "potential," perhaps, "revealed."

[Malcolm]

At what point does the manifestation of these traces become a noticeable object for discernment?

I went through a period of high situational stress that had an ill effect on my health. Through some guided help I learned to notice the first signs, chest tightness, kind of like, situational cues triggering body or muscle memory. Is this an example of the first possible identifiers? or is this something totally different from what is represented here?

Never.