sems and rigpa

[LastLegend]

Sambhogakaya is a result of merit in accordance with cause and effect. Compassion and all the good things arise for benefit of sentient beings; that’s how merit created for those enlightened masters. They continue teach for benefits of sentient beings. Not all enlightened masters have rainbow lights or crystal bones when they die it’s because difference in merit.

Nature itself is really empty but only that innate wisdom. But it’s the birth place of everything.

Our Sambhogakaya right now is our human body!

[Josef]

But in terms of pure. Well if there is isn’t anything there at all, what is pure, compassion, etc coming from?

My understanding of that is: Compassion is not separate from emptiness, it manifests when the relative is fully seen from the view of the absolute, but it is not separate thing which is "produced" anywhere.

Right.
Compassion/thugje is a characteristic of the basis. Ngowo, rangzhin, and thugje

[Josef]

Sambhogakaya is a result of merit in accordance with cause and effect. Compassion and all the good things arise for benefit of sentient beings; that’s how merit created for those enlightened masters. They continue teach for benefits of sentient beings. Not all enlightened masters have rainbow lights or crystal bones when they die it’s because difference in merit.

Nature itself is really empty but only that innate wisdom. But it’s the birth place of everything.

Our Sambhogakaya right now is our human body!

The kayas are path appearances in Dzogchen, not results.

[LastLegend]

Sambhogakaya is a result of merit in accordance with cause and effect. Compassion and all the good things arise for benefit of sentient beings; that’s how merit created for those enlightened masters. They continue teach for benefits of sentient beings. Not all enlightened masters have rainbow lights or crystal bones when they die it’s because difference in merit.

Nature itself is really empty but only that innate wisdom. But it’s the birth place of everything.

Our Sambhogakaya right now is our human body!

The kayas are path appearances in Dzogchen, not results.

They are appearances but result from merit. Wondering what isn’t appearance?

[Josef]

Sambhogakaya is a result of merit in accordance with cause and effect. Compassion and all the good things arise for benefit of sentient beings; that’s how merit created for those enlightened masters. They continue teach for benefits of sentient beings. Not all enlightened masters have rainbow lights or crystal bones when they die it’s because difference in merit.

Nature itself is really empty but only that innate wisdom. But it’s the birth place of everything.

Our Sambhogakaya right now is our human body!

The kayas are path appearances in Dzogchen, not results.

They are appearances but result from merit. Wondering what isn’t appearance?

No, they aren’t the result of merit at all according to Dzogchen. Everything is an appearance in a sense. The kayas are a specific appearance connected with the methodology of Dzogchen.

[LastLegend]

The kayas are path appearances in Dzogchen, not results.

They are appearances but result from merit. Wondering what isn’t appearance?

No, they aren’t the result of merit at all according to Dzogchen. Everything is an appearance in a sense. The kayas are a specific appearance connected with the methodology of Dzogchen.

That’s cool!

But let’s talk about merit! Non-Buddhists for example can create merit through Dana but without the aim for enlightenment, so they get better fruit in samsara maybe more wealthy (for example).

[Josef]

They are appearances but result from merit. Wondering what isn’t appearance?

No, they aren’t the result of merit at all according to Dzogchen. Everything is an appearance in a sense. The kayas are a specific appearance connected with the methodology of Dzogchen.

That’s cool!

But let’s talk about merit! Non-Buddhists for example can create merit through Dana but without the aim for enlightenment, so they get better fruit in samsara maybe more wealthy (for example).

Maybe off topic, but yes. Merit is relative and connected with positive actions. Bodhicitta etc makes this far more powerful but merit is really just a function of relative causality. Samantabhadra was liberated without an iota of merit.

[LastLegend]

No, they aren’t the result of merit at all according to Dzogchen. Everything is an appearance in a sense. The kayas are a specific appearance connected with the methodology of Dzogchen.

That’s cool!

But let’s talk about merit! Non-Buddhists for example can create merit through Dana but without the aim for enlightenment, so they get better fruit in samsara maybe more wealthy (for example).

Maybe off topic, but yes. Merit is relative and connected with positive actions. Bodhicitta etc makes this far more powerful but merit is really just a function of relative causality. Samantabhadra was liberated without an iota of merit.

It’s built in for you guys: merit is really the practice itself. What isn’t causality other than nature dude?

[Josef]

That’s cool!

But let’s talk about merit! Non-Buddhists for example can create merit through Dana but without the aim for enlightenment, so they get better fruit in samsara maybe more wealthy (for example).

Maybe off topic, but yes. Merit is relative and connected with positive actions. Bodhicitta etc makes this far more powerful but merit is really just a function of relative causality. Samantabhadra was liberated without an iota of merit.

It’s built in for you guys: merit is really the practice itself. What isn’t causality other than nature dude?

The ground, path, and fruition are not causal for Dzogchen practitioners.

[LastLegend]

Maybe off topic, but yes. Merit is relative and connected with positive actions. Bodhicitta etc makes this far more powerful but merit is really just a function of relative causality. Samantabhadra was liberated without an iota of merit.

It’s built in for you guys: merit is really the practice itself. What isn’t causality other than nature dude?

The ground, path, and fruition are not causal for Dzogchen practitioners.

That’s fine.

[Simon E.]

They are appearances but result from merit. Wondering what isn’t appearance?

No, they aren’t the result of merit at all according to Dzogchen. Everything is an appearance in a sense. The kayas are a specific appearance connected with the methodology of Dzogchen.

That’s cool!

But let’s talk about merit! Non-Buddhists for example can create merit through Dana but without the aim for enlightenment, so they get better fruit in samsara maybe more wealthy (for example).

You are NOT a Dzogchen practitioner “ Lost Legend” .It is absolutely clear that you know nothing at all about Dzogchen. Why don’t don’t you stick to pontificating about your own tradition.

[heart]

That's not what I said.
Ironically though if we look into the connate ignorance and wisdom of the basis there isnt really much of a difference there either. The resolution of ignorance at the ground of liberation is just the same nature but there is no longer any confusion about it.

So you don't think Sem is confusion? You don't think Rigpa is knowledge?

/magnus

sems is definitely not confusion. Sems nyid can be obscured by confusion but that doesnt mean that mind itself is confusion. Rigpa is ones knowledge of the basis amongst other things.

Please read my quote from the Pearl Garland Tantra before. To add something more:

Thus, the three worlds,
The five aggregates and five sense-faculties,
The five limbs and the five organs,
The five objects and the five disturbing emotions,
The five cognitive acts, five mental faculties and five
conceptions, all of samsara,
Have been created by subject and object fixation.
Through this confusion and dualistic perception,
Like a swiftly spinning wheel,
One has continuously remained in samsara for a long
time.

/magnus

[heart]

The six characteristics of Samantabhadras liberation totally refute the notion of accumulating anything.

And?

and, that means that the way liberation is described in the tantras and their commentaries positions Dzogchen as a vehicle that is beyond any notions of accumulations, purification, or any other conventional notions of stages etc that we see in other yanas. Sure there is individual progress but actual liberation is completely free of any limitations.

Is this why you think Sems isn't confusion? Because Sems is where your "individual progress" manifest. The more clever your thoughts are the more enlightened you become?

/magnus

[Josef]

So you don't think Sem is confusion? You don't think Rigpa is knowledge?

/magnus

sems is definitely not confusion. Sems nyid can be obscured by confusion but that doesnt mean that mind itself is confusion. Rigpa is ones knowledge of the basis amongst other things.

Please read my quote from the Pearl Garland Tantra before. To add something more:

Thus, the three worlds,
The five aggregates and five sense-faculties,
The five limbs and the five organs,
The five objects and the five disturbing emotions,
The five cognitive acts, five mental faculties and five
conceptions, all of samsara,
Have been created by subject and object fixation.
Through this confusion and dualistic perception,
Like a swiftly spinning wheel,
One has continuously remained in samsara for a long
time.

/magnus

Nothing about that equates mind with confusion. The appearances of samsara are the result of subject/object confusion is what is being stated in this quote.

[Josef]

And?

and, that means that the way liberation is described in the tantras and their commentaries positions Dzogchen as a vehicle that is beyond any notions of accumulations, purification, or any other conventional notions of stages etc that we see in other yanas. Sure there is individual progress but actual liberation is completely free of any limitations.

Is this why you think Sems isn't confusion? Because Sems is where your "individual progress" manifest. The more clever your thoughts are the more enlightened you become?

/magnus

Definitely not.
I don’t think sems is confusion because it obviously is not. Confusion can be an affliction of the mind but since the minds nature is naturally perfect the mind can not be defined as confusion. This is actually pretty obvious and surprising that someone who’s been doing this as long as you have would have such a strange idea.
If you actually think mind IS confusion you’re practicing the path of renunciation, not self liberation. You’re basically practicing Chan, not Dzogchen.

[tkp67]

"Sems" will self-liberate. Buddhas don't have "sems".

/magnus

That so? Do you have any sources for this?

So, we have 3 possibilities on the table:

1. Sems can exist either in a pure or an impure state. For a buddha, sems is pure. For everyone else, it's impure. This implies that also a buddha has sems.
2. Sems ceases to exist for a buddha. Therefore, sems can only ever exist in an impure form for a non-enlightened being. Talking of such a thing as a pure sems for enlightenend beings makes no sense.
3. Sems has always been pure from the beginning, like gold never having been anything else than gold. Thus, also a buddha has sems, but in contrast to an ordinary being s/he does not cling to the wrong idea of an impure sems.

Now, playing the devil's advocate, which one is true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubtlg17NaE4

Both the voice and music are particularly harmonious to my ear. Is it inappropriate if I as if there are more like with same chanter/singer/instruments?

Thank you in advance.

[dharmafootsteps]

Coincidentally Malcolm just answered this question on Facebook. I won't quote him directly as he prefers his posts not shared elsewhere, but his answer is in agreement with Heart. And he points out, as he has done here before, that what distinguishes Dzogchen from the path of transformation, including Mahamudra, is that Dzogchen takes ye shes as the basis, and not sems. According to Dzogchen mind is not transformed into ye shes, mind is discarded when ye shes is discovered.

[heart]

and, that means that the way liberation is described in the tantras and their commentaries positions Dzogchen as a vehicle that is beyond any notions of accumulations, purification, or any other conventional notions of stages etc that we see in other yanas. Sure there is individual progress but actual liberation is completely free of any limitations.

Is this why you think Sems isn't confusion? Because Sems is where your "individual progress" manifest. The more clever your thoughts are the more enlightened you become?

/magnus

Definitely not.
I don’t think sems is confusion because it obviously is not. Confusion can be an affliction of the mind but since the minds nature is naturally perfect the mind can not be defined as confusion. This is actually pretty obvious and surprising that someone who’s been doing this as long as you have would have such a strange idea.
If you actually think mind IS confusion you’re practicing the path of renunciation, not self liberation. You’re basically practicing Chan, not Dzogchen.

Mind is confusion, delusion and the cause of endless Samsara. Still minds nature is pure and perfect and free from confusion. Through actually applying the practice of Dzogchen this becomes very obvious beyond intellectual ideas. My previous quotes are abundantly clear.

Joesph, you don't know me and so you know nothing about my practice.

/magnus

[Josef]

Coincidentally Malcolm just answered this question on Facebook. I won't quote him directly as he prefers his posts not shared elsewhere, but his answer is in agreement with Heart. And he points out, as he has done here before, that what distinguishes Dzogchen from the path of transformation, including Mahamudra, is that Dzogchen takes ye shes as the basis, and not sems. According to Dzogchen mind is not transformed into ye shes, mind is discarded when ye shes is discovered.

That in no way agreed with “sems is confusion”.
Nobody is arguing that sems is the basis.

[Josef]

Is this why you think Sems isn't confusion? Because Sems is where your "individual progress" manifest. The more clever your thoughts are the more enlightened you become?

/magnus

Definitely not.
I don’t think sems is confusion because it obviously is not. Confusion can be an affliction of the mind but since the minds nature is naturally perfect the mind can not be defined as confusion. This is actually pretty obvious and surprising that someone who’s been doing this as long as you have would have such a strange idea.
If you actually think mind IS confusion you’re practicing the path of renunciation, not self liberation. You’re basically practicing Chan, not Dzogchen.

Mind is confusion, delusion and the cause of endless Samsara. Still minds nature is pure and perfect and free from confusion. Through actually applying the practice of Dzogchen this becomes very obvious beyond intellectual ideas. My previous quotes are abundantly clear.

Joesph, you don't know me and so you know nothing about my practice.

/magnus

Actually, grasping at appearances as being other than one’s own phenomena is the cause of samsara.
The quotes are clear, your interpretation of them is what’s problematic. To make the bold assertion that mind=confusion goes too far. If mind was confusion the point of Dzogchen practice would be to renounce the mind entirely, not discover its nature. To assert that mind=confusion defies both intellectual analysis and practical application.
And actually Magnus, we’ve been interacting in conversations such as this for over a decade. Maybe you’re just not actually paying attention.