Yet, it is explained in myriad ways for different beings' propensities, in order for them to be able to realize this directly.Josef wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:20 pmCorrect. Everything is naturally perfected and pure in its true nature.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:43 pmSo then, it's just non-recognition that is the issue, there is nothing to purify.
sems and rigpa
Re: sems and rigpa
Re: sems and rigpa
Sure, but this is the Dzogchen section afterall and the Dzogchen perspective is that it is naturally perfected.TrimePema wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:29 pmYet, it is explained in myriad ways for different beings' propensities, in order for them to be able to realize this directly.Josef wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:20 pmCorrect. Everything is naturally perfected and pure in its true nature.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:43 pm
So then, it's just non-recognition that is the issue, there is nothing to purify.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: sems and rigpa
hmm, yes and no - remember the blurb for that book you posted?Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:43 pm So then, it's just non-recognition that is the issue, there is nothing to purify.
"This was understood by mahasiddhas like Saraha and Tilopa, who spent years doing practices to transform impure vision into pure vision. Then they realized that the problem was not vision, but attachment."
Re: sems and rigpa
There is no difference between confusion and knowledge?Josef wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:00 pmThe distinction between sems and sems nyid is only relevant to establishing the recognition of sems nyid. There is no difference between sems and sems nyid.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:26 pmTUR (and other Dzogchen masters) would talk about the 5 wisdoms in a Dzogchen context. In some Semde texts, sems is said to "become" ( = be "apprehended" as) Dharmakaya when sems nyid gets seen for what it is. Malcolm would know, and I am not sure, but it seems to me that in Upadesha sems is principally used in contradistinction with sems nyid, in the context of rushens/semdzins. Normally the framework would be different and more nuanced, as in there-are-the-three-kinds-of-energy story.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:51 amI'm asking what sems "becomes" when there is recognition. It's a Dzogchen specific question. I mean in Tantra we say that the purified aggregates becomes the wisdoms etc., I am wondering if this applies to sems at all, or if the correct answer in Dzogchen terms is that sems is "pure from the beginning".
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: sems and rigpa
Right, samsara in Dzogchen is non-recognition. I guess this means that the only "purification" is actually directed towards recognition and stabilizing it, rather than accumulating or purifying anything.
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Re: sems and rigpa
That's not what I said.heart wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:20 pmThere is no difference between confusion and knowledge?Josef wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:00 pmThe distinction between sems and sems nyid is only relevant to establishing the recognition of sems nyid. There is no difference between sems and sems nyid.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:26 pm
TUR (and other Dzogchen masters) would talk about the 5 wisdoms in a Dzogchen context. In some Semde texts, sems is said to "become" ( = be "apprehended" as) Dharmakaya when sems nyid gets seen for what it is. Malcolm would know, and I am not sure, but it seems to me that in Upadesha sems is principally used in contradistinction with sems nyid, in the context of rushens/semdzins. Normally the framework would be different and more nuanced, as in there-are-the-three-kinds-of-energy story.
/magnus
Ironically though if we look into the connate ignorance and wisdom of the basis there isnt really much of a difference there either. The resolution of ignorance at the ground of liberation is just the same nature but there is no longer any confusion about it.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: sems and rigpa
Exactly. There are no accumulations in the liberation of Samantabhadra etc.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:35 pmRight, samsara in Dzogchen is non-recognition. I guess this means that the only "purification" is actually directed towards recognition and stabilizing it, rather than accumulating or purifying anything.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: sems and rigpa
So you don't think Sem is confusion? You don't think Rigpa is knowledge?Josef wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:36 pmThat's not what I said.
Ironically though if we look into the connate ignorance and wisdom of the basis there isnt really much of a difference there either. The resolution of ignorance at the ground of liberation is just the same nature but there is no longer any confusion about it.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: sems and rigpa
Heh, I have to confess this is exactly why I posted this. There are a few different ways to answer this question and it's a pretty interesting conundrum...
It seems we can only answer in dualistic language of one kind or another, no matter how hard we try. Maybe that's sems for ya.
In Kongtrul's Myriad Worlds, I feel like the most substantial difference between the Dzogchen and Mahayana view is mainly just that Dzogchen doesn't acknowledge time, recognition ibeing definition timeless, and time being a function of the deluded mind... whereas the accumulation model is necessarily based on a chronology.
It seems we can only answer in dualistic language of one kind or another, no matter how hard we try. Maybe that's sems for ya.
In Kongtrul's Myriad Worlds, I feel like the most substantial difference between the Dzogchen and Mahayana view is mainly just that Dzogchen doesn't acknowledge time, recognition ibeing definition timeless, and time being a function of the deluded mind... whereas the accumulation model is necessarily based on a chronology.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
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Re: sems and rigpa
sems is definitely not confusion. Sems nyid can be obscured by confusion but that doesnt mean that mind itself is confusion. Rigpa is ones knowledge of the basis amongst other things.heart wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:47 pmSo you don't think Sem is confusion? You don't think Rigpa is knowledge?Josef wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:36 pmThat's not what I said.
Ironically though if we look into the connate ignorance and wisdom of the basis there isnt really much of a difference there either. The resolution of ignorance at the ground of liberation is just the same nature but there is no longer any confusion about it.
/magnus
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: sems and rigpa
The six characteristics of Samantabhadras liberation totally refute the notion of accumulating anything.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:51 pm Heh, I have to confess this is exactly why I posted this. There are a few different ways to answer this question and it's a pretty interesting conundrum...
It seems we can only answer in dualistic language of one kind or another, no matter how hard we try. Maybe that's sems for ya.
In Kongtrul's Myriad Worlds, I feel like the most substantial difference between the Dzogchen and Mahayana view is mainly just that Dzogchen doesn't acknowledge time, recognition ibeing definition timeless, and time being a function of the deluded mind... whereas the accumulation model is necessarily based on a chronology.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: sems and rigpa
And?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:05 amThe six characteristics of Samantabhadras liberation totally refute the notion of accumulating anything.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:51 pm Heh, I have to confess this is exactly why I posted this. There are a few different ways to answer this question and it's a pretty interesting conundrum...
It seems we can only answer in dualistic language of one kind or another, no matter how hard we try. Maybe that's sems for ya.
In Kongtrul's Myriad Worlds, I feel like the most substantial difference between the Dzogchen and Mahayana view is mainly just that Dzogchen doesn't acknowledge time, recognition ibeing definition timeless, and time being a function of the deluded mind... whereas the accumulation model is necessarily based on a chronology.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: sems and rigpa
and, that means that the way liberation is described in the tantras and their commentaries positions Dzogchen as a vehicle that is beyond any notions of accumulations, purification, or any other conventional notions of stages etc that we see in other yanas. Sure there is individual progress but actual liberation is completely free of any limitations.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:11 amAnd?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:05 amThe six characteristics of Samantabhadras liberation totally refute the notion of accumulating anything.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:51 pm Heh, I have to confess this is exactly why I posted this. There are a few different ways to answer this question and it's a pretty interesting conundrum...
It seems we can only answer in dualistic language of one kind or another, no matter how hard we try. Maybe that's sems for ya.
In Kongtrul's Myriad Worlds, I feel like the most substantial difference between the Dzogchen and Mahayana view is mainly just that Dzogchen doesn't acknowledge time, recognition ibeing definition timeless, and time being a function of the deluded mind... whereas the accumulation model is necessarily based on a chronology.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: sems and rigpa
...and, believing that you are somehow existing outside of time - you will start to accumulate barnacles!Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:11 amAnd?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:05 amThe six characteristics of Samantabhadras liberation totally refute the notion of accumulating anything.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:51 pm Heh, I have to confess this is exactly why I posted this. There are a few different ways to answer this question and it's a pretty interesting conundrum...
It seems we can only answer in dualistic language of one kind or another, no matter how hard we try. Maybe that's sems for ya.
In Kongtrul's Myriad Worlds, I feel like the most substantial difference between the Dzogchen and Mahayana view is mainly just that Dzogchen doesn't acknowledge time, recognition ibeing definition timeless, and time being a function of the deluded mind... whereas the accumulation model is necessarily based on a chronology.
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Re: sems and rigpa
At the risk of this turning too abstract to be useful:futerko wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:15 am...and, believing that you are somehow existing outside of time - you will start to accumulate barnacles!
My inclination is that outside of time isn't really 'existing' (or not existing for that matter), that's the whole thing, time is a characteristic of cyclic existence, or sems if we prefer, but not of enlightenment/the nature of mind.
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Re: sems and rigpa
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:25 amAt the risk of this turning too abstract to be useful:
My inclination is that outside of time isn't really 'existing' (or not existing for that matter), that's the whole thing, time is a characteristic of cyclic existence, or sems if we prefer, but not of enlightenment/the nature of mind.
Hence the quotation from ChNN from the book you were interested in,
If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner;
If you are attached to samsara, you have no renunciation;
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhichitta;
If there is grasping, you do not have the view.
To establish confidence in the view is a huge step, but not the whole story - one must then integrate.
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Re: sems and rigpa
Yeah.futerko wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:39 amJohnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:25 amAt the risk of this turning too abstract to be useful:
My inclination is that outside of time isn't really 'existing' (or not existing for that matter), that's the whole thing, time is a characteristic of cyclic existence, or sems if we prefer, but not of enlightenment/the nature of mind.
Hence the quotation from ChNN from the book you were interested in,
If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner;
If you are attached to samsara, you have no renunciation;
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhichitta;
If there is grasping, you do not have the view.
To establish confidence in the view is a huge step, but not the whole story - one must then integrate.
I just got the book btw, it's awesome. This is a seriously important teaching in the Sakya world and it's pretty cool that this exists.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
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Re: sems and rigpa
Yeah, it does look really good - enjoy!Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:42 amYeah.futerko wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:39 am
Hence the quotation from ChNN from the book you were interested in,
If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner;
If you are attached to samsara, you have no renunciation;
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhichitta;
If there is grasping, you do not have the view.
To establish confidence in the view is a huge step, but not the whole story - one must then integrate.
I just got the book btw, it's awesome. This is a seriously important teaching in the Sakya world and it's pretty cool that this exists.
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Re: sems and rigpa
Non-differentiating wisdom that’s what we call nature: naturally knowing and pure. Yes, if you are certain that’s what you see, then that’s where you’ll stay and automatically fulfill the last two paramitas (and that’s built in accumulation). I am sure people also recognize grasping and duality being an issue, but it’s the right thing to ignore them and in fact forget pretty much all have learned. And just nature living itself. Much respect to this type of knowledge is only shown by enlightened masters.
But in terms of pure. Well if there is isn’t anything there at all, what is pure, compassion, etc coming from?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: sems and rigpa
My understanding of that is: Compassion is not separate from emptiness, it manifests when the relative is fully seen from the view of the absolute, but it is not separate thing which is "produced" anywhere.LastLegend wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:01 am
But in terms of pure. Well if there is isn’t anything there at all, what is pure, compassion, etc coming from?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
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