Buddhist Hell seems a bit much

[truthb]

Hi all-

I have been tinkering with Buddhism for years, meaning taking little bits of pieces and now I am diving in deep and really imersing myself in the Mahayana tradition.

Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

Any insights?

[Caoimhghín]

Any insights?

Saṁsāra sucks. Let's just all be thankful that Jehovah isn't the one that will be punishing one's soul eternally in a neverending holy temper tantrum.

[Queequeg]

Any insights?

Saṁsāra sucks. Let's just all be thankful that Jehovah isn't the one that will be punishing one's soul eternally in a neverending holy temper tantrum.

This.

one billion trillion is still < eternity.

One of the basic Buddhist teachings is, "do good, don't do evil."

For those tempted to do evil, keep in mind the punishments of hell and their duration.

If you do evil, Buddhism teaches, take your lumps.

[Dan74]

Hi all-

I have been tinkering with Buddhism for years, meaning taking little bits of pieces and now I am diving in deep and really imersing myself in the Mahayana tradition.

Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

Any insights?

Buddhism isn't a creed, so you are free to doubt some teachings.

Myself I don't know. Doesn't seem commensurate, I agree. Maybe it was exaggerated for motivational purposes?

[dechenpa]

You are looking at it in terms of justice, which is a Western concept, bound up with the gods of the ancients (primarily Zeus) and Mosaic law, and divine providence. In Buddhism, there are no divine arbiters of justice, there are only actions and their results. The hells are projections of our own minds. We create them ourselves, and they have no inherent reality. What happens in the hells is beyond imagination, and is neither just nor fair. There is nobody who is going to save you from the hells but yourself. Samsara is so much worse than you think.

[KeithA]

Any insights?

Don't go there.

[Könchok Thrinley]

Some people feel like their lives are a hell or their lives really are hellish without them "doing" anything to be like that. No need to look at hells, it is enough to look at yourself during your worst. We all have enough karma to suffer in this life without us necessarily doing anything wrong. Imagine bilions of lives of bad karma. Sounds like enough to me.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Hi all-

I have been tinkering with Buddhism for years, meaning taking little bits of pieces and now I am diving in deep and really imersing myself in the Mahayana tradition.

Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

Any insights?

You've never been covered head-to-toe with poison ivy.
A billion years of torture can occur even during just one summer.
.
.
.

[truthb]

You are looking at it in terms of justice, which is a Western concept, bound up with the gods of the ancients (primarily Zeus) and Mosaic law, and divine providence. In Buddhism, there are no divine arbiters of justice, there are only actions and their results. The hells are projections of our own minds. We create them ourselves, and they have no inherent reality. What happens in the hells is beyond imagination, and is neither just nor fair. There is nobody who is going to save you from the hells but yourself. Samsara is so much worse than you think.

I admit that I was raised in Western Culture, and hence have that idea of justice deeply embedded in me.... and I was trying to understand it in terms of cause and effect.

Hell being the effect.... I was trying to understand what could cause that.

[Fortyeightvows]

In Buddhism, there are no divine arbiters of justice, there are only actions and their results.

Except for the Yama’s court, his officers, the trial with the mirror, the ten kings, etc.

[jhanapeacock]

In Buddhism, there are no divine arbiters of justice, there are only actions and their results.

Except for the Yama’s court, his offIicers, the trial with the mirror, the ten kings, etc.

Lol, i was just going to said that.

[Astus]

Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

'There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.'
(Lonaphala Sutta)

'This fifth category means the maturation of a big result from a small karma For example, regarding nonvirtuous deeds, it is said that one will experience a kalpa in the hell realm for each instant of negative thought Engaging in the Conduct of Bodhisattvas says:
"The Buddha has said that whoever bears an evil thought
Against a benefactor such as that bodhisattva
Will remain in hell for as many aeons
As there were evil thoughts"'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 120)

'Therefore, solidify the certainty that even the subtlest of virtuous and nonvirtuous actions follow you like shadows and produce both great happiness and great suffering. Then, strive to cultivate even the subtlest of virtues and to eliminate even the subtlest of sins and infractions.'
(The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment, vol 1, p 212)

[tkp67]

Hi all-

I have been tinkering with Buddhism for years, meaning taking little bits of pieces and now I am diving in deep and really imersing myself in the Mahayana tradition.

Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

Any insights?

It seems unreasonable from the perspective of just one human existence. When you look at all human existence as an aggregate it might be accurate in regards to the human condition that relentlessly seeks the perpetuation of samsara.

[PadmaVonSamba]

The problem we have in the west is that we are always comparing these buddhist "unprovables"
to our own being, as though our own being is somehow provable.
Then we forget the basics, the basic premises of Dharma, of emptiness, illusion, clinging.
We forget that it applies all around.
So, just as we wonder if celestial beings, and ghosts and hell dwellers and various realms are "real"
in the same way that we are "real"
we forget that concepts such as "uncountable kalpas" or "billions of years in a hell realm" also follow the same reasoning.
We are only on one planet, that takes 365 spins, what we ignorantly separate into "night and day"
then going around around our Sun, to make a year.
Actually, all of our labels for time are arbitrary.
We say the big bang happened billions of years ago.
But if the universe is still expanding because of it,
then it's still happening, isn't it?
You can't find an indivisible moment when the big bang "stopped".
So, a billion years in the hell realm,
maybe that happens in a split second.
.
.
.

[Matt J]

Belief is hell is not a core, or even a necessary component of being a Buddhist. It is not a refuge, a Noble Truth, a part of the Eightfold Path, a dharma seal, etc.

Most of the past life memories recorded by UVA are memories of past human lives without reference to hell realms.

[Fortyeightvows]

Most of the past life memories recorded by UVA are memories of past human lives without reference to hell realms.

I would guess that there are also no references to other realms only. maybe it's because the people they are talking to don't have a frame to remember their time as animals, etc.
We know that memory is not 'static' and to ordinary minds it always carries some feeling.

[Sonam Wangchug]

Belief is hell is not a core, or even a necessary component of being a Buddhist. It is not a refuge, a Noble Truth, a part of the Eightfold Path, a dharma seal, etc.

Most of the past life memories recorded by UVA are memories of past human lives without reference to hell realms.

False

[Nemo]

The big question is who is doing the punishing?
Are there a class of evil beings who delight in tormenting evil humans, Gods and even animals?
That sounds very silly. A ghost story to tell novices around the fire.

But if your true nature is the actual Buddha imagine his distress at doing an evil deed. Would you not punish yourself?
I think it is summed up well by this. "In the abode of Yama(God of Death) the houses have no windows or doors."

Yama can also be translated as twin.

One of his powers being making you feel ashamed of your actions.

The underworld is often thought of as the unconscious.

All the puzzle pieces are there,...

[Fortyeightvows]

Belief is hell is not a core, or even a necessary component of being a Buddhist. It is not a refuge, a Noble Truth, a part of the Eightfold Path, a dharma seal, etc.

Most of the past life memories recorded by UVA are memories of past human lives without reference to hell realms.

False

Which parts are false?

[truthb]

Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

'There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.'
(Lonaphala Sutta)

'This fifth category means the maturation of a big result from a small karma For example, regarding nonvirtuous deeds, it is said that one will experience a kalpa in the hell realm for each instant of negative thought Engaging in the Conduct of Bodhisattvas says:
"The Buddha has said that whoever bears an evil thought
Against a benefactor such as that bodhisattva
Will remain in hell for as many aeons
As there were evil thoughts"'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 120)

'Therefore, solidify the certainty that even the subtlest of virtuous and nonvirtuous actions follow you like shadows and produce both great happiness and great suffering. Then, strive to cultivate even the subtlest of virtues and to eliminate even the subtlest of sins and infractions.'
(The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment, vol 1, p 212)

Thank you.

That is what I am looking for- to understand Hell within the Buddhist context.