Buddhism, and theistic religions.

[PadmaVonSamba]

My background is also Kagyu, and I also base my thinking in scientific skepticism.
You can't kid yourself into believing something that you don't ultimately believe.
However, you can broaden (rather than deepen?) your understanding of the teachings.

Personally, I would recommend Amitabha practice, for two reasons.
And I would add to that, not just Vajrayana Amitabha visualizations, but non-vajrayana ("traditional" mahayana) Pure Land practice
(reciting "namo Amitabha") as well.

First, because, as the vajrayana teachings say, the true nature of your mind is infinite.
Likewise, Amitabha is the Buddha of Infinite Light. When you take refuge in Amitabha,
you stop relying on finite, samsaric mind. You take refuge in your mind's infinite nature, which is inseparable from Amitabha.

Second, because you are scientific minded, you cling to logic and reason as part of who you are. Same with me. It's how I was raised.
We like buddhism, rather than to theistic religions because "it makes sense", right?
But, see, that's still ego clinging.
"I am a totally rational person and not prone to being duped by superstition!!!"
It's still a comfort-zone trip, still a "me" thing.
So, how do you cut through that?

I've pissed off a few people before, by saying this:
Mahayana Amitabha practice is brilliantly stupid.
It's like a Zen koan in that way...it pokes a burning stick up your logical nose, because you just do it.
If you try to rationalize it scientifically, there is nothing to hold onto.
In fact, the Jodo Shin tradition insists that you must quit even trying by your own efforts, and just chant Namo Amida Butsu,
...that it is purely Amitabha Buddha's Compassion that is at work.

This is where broadening your understanding of the teachings comes in,
that non-conceptual space opens up where you see everything as Pure Land,
And Amitabha can be experienced as "real" ...yet you aren't trying to "convince" yourself that there's some kind of god thing going on.

I think, that's the thing about theistic gods...
If you want them, you can't be logical about it, because they aren't logical.





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[tellyontellyon]

This is all really interesting. I haven't read the lotus sutra, I don't know why I've skipped over that?

[Queequeg]

This is all really interesting. I haven't read the lotus sutra, I don't know why I've skipped over that?

Well, that's actually fine. By its own description, its not meant to be encountered at the beginning... its the teaching the Buddha gives at the end, to tie it all together, how to put all these teachings into the context of Buddhahood - which is presented differently than in other teachings. It breathes life back in, in contrast to other teachings and practices that tend to desiccate... Its the rain that nourishes and enlivens. Its fundamentally about Joy in the Dharma.

[tellyontellyon]

Another little book that I picked up a few years ago was: The Four Buddhist Books In Mahayana. Translated by Upasika Chihmann.
It is a lovely book with a very endearing and sincere testimony by Miss P. C. Lee (the translator).
This book also talks about chanting Amitabha.

There seems to be a few different ways of doing this I can find: Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese and probably others.. So I'm in a bit of a quandary.

[DewachenVagabond]

Another little book that I picked up a few years ago was: The Four Buddhist Books In Mahayana. Translated by Upasika Chihmann.
It is a lovely book with a very endearing and sincere testimony by Miss P. C. Lee (the translator).
This book also talks about chanting Amitabha.

There seems to be a few different ways of doing this I can find: Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese and probably others.. So I'm in a bit of a quandary.

If you're interested in Amitabha practice/Pure Land Buddhism, you should visit the Pure Land forum and maybe ask some questions there. Of course if you're more interested in Tibetan Buddhism, then you could ask about Amitabha practices on the Tibetan forum as well.

In general, the language you recite in doesn't matter too much (although it is unusual to chant Amitabha in English), it largely just depends on the school and country of origin what way you will chant. I prefer the Chinese version, Namo Amituofo.

[rory]

These are two simple and common practices: You could chant ch. 25 at an altar with a statue of Guanyin and when you are finished, transfer the merits and vow to be born in the Pure Land. And you chant Guanyin's name. Or if you prefer chant the smaller Pure Land Sutra etc.,and chant Amida's name. Both practices are widely done.

Lotus Sutra. Ch. 25:
Remember:

I shall now tell you in brief,
That for those who hear his name or see him,
And who are mindful of his name unceasingly,
He can extinguish the suffering of all realms of existence....

In thought after thought we have no doubt:
Guanshiyin is pure and sagely.
In times of suffering, agony, danger, and death,
He is our refuge and protector.

Complete with all merit and virtue,
His kind eyes watching living beings,
He is endowed with massive blessings, limitless as the sea.
Therefore we should reverently worship him.

http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus25.htm
gassho
Rory

[rory]

SonamTashi:

If you're interested in Amitabha practice/Pure Land Buddhism, you should visit the Pure Land forum and maybe ask some questions there. Of course if you're more interested in Tibetan Buddhism, then you could ask about Amitabha practices on the Tibetan forum as well.

In general, the language you recite in doesn't matter too much (although it is unusual to chant Amitabha in English), it largely just depends on the school and country of origin what way you will chant. I prefer the Chinese version, Namo Amituofo.

I practice Pure Land within Tendai (Japanese Lotus Sutra school), so I chant in Japanese and many East Asian practitioners also practice Pure Land along with other practices.
Namu Kannon Bosatsu
Rory

[dude]

I recommend the Lotus Sutra above all.

[tellyontellyon]

Yes, I think will look into Pure Land Buddhism and see what I can find out.

[DewachenVagabond]

Yes, I think will look into Pure Land Buddhism and see what I can find out.

In that case, check out the /r/Pureland subreddit as well. Lately it has been more active than the forum here.

[tellyontellyon]

Thank you all

[amanitamusc]

Hello, I've probably asked this question or one similar to it, but didn't explain myself well... So I'll ask in this forum and explain myself a bit better.

I'm a Buddhist and follow the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, though I also like to read some translations of the Pali suttas and I like to hear Ajahn Amaro podcasts.
I trained as a psychotherapist that included a Universalist spiritual dimension to it, Jungian, Archetypal and Sufi ideas were included.
I like the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi mysticism), I also like to read the New Testament.
However, as I said, I am firmly in the Buddhist camp.

I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of the Christians and the Sufis though....
.... I have a sense that they have the feeling of a god right there with them at all times and someone to save them and help them.

Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.

Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.

Western practitioners often have a more secular or 'scientific' background to their approach to Buddhism that doesn't emphasise as much of the more 'spiritual' or supernatural aspects as much as Asian Buddhists, or at least that is how it seems to me (I might be wrong).
As a westerner, have I developed a view of Buddhism that is too 'scientific' and therefore cut myself of from the more spiritual aspects that the theistic religions seem to focus much more on..?
... Or is that just wishful thinking?

What would you say in your opinions on this?

Thank you.

You said you follow Karma Kagyu.What does your Lama say about these questions you have?
BTW You should not feel jealous of two religions that do not lead to liberation.Xstian and sufi.

[katz_in_the_hat]

I'm pretty sure most Buddhists throughout history have practiced devotion to either the buddha or certain boddhisattvas or both, so you shouldn't feel out of place praying in Buddhism. I'm more familiar with zen and I know devotion to Gwan Yin/Kanzeon is widespread in east Asia. I don't have a source for this, but I believe most Asians don't pray to Buddha directly because he's viewed a deity that only intervenes in extremely important matters that affect humanity/society as a whole. For smaller, more personal, problems they go to certain Bodhisattvas and local deities.

Doesn't Kagyu pray to Vairocana and Vajrasattva? Anyway, do you have a guru you can ask about this? They would know best whether to give you a certain deity to pray to or whether this an attempt on your part to grasp at something else.

[TheWhiteLotus]

Hello, I've probably asked this question or one similar to it, but didn't explain myself well... So I'll ask in this forum and explain myself a bit better.

I'm a Buddhist and follow the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, though I also like to read some translations of the Pali suttas and I like to hear Ajahn Amaro podcasts.
I trained as a psychotherapist that included a Universalist spiritual dimension to it, Jungian, Archetypal and Sufi ideas were included.
I like the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi mysticism), I also like to read the New Testament.
However, as I said, I am firmly in the Buddhist camp.

I was a Sufi for many years. And I once followed orthodox Christianity, attracted to it's mysticism. Now I am a Buddhist, who practices the Tibetan Bon Buddhism, although I try to read books and listen to lectures from all buddhist traditions.

Sufism is inseparateable from Islam, Sufism is the mystical or spiritual aspect of Islam. In Islam they divide the person into three. Mind, Body and Spirit. Creed (Aqida) is realted to the Mind, Law (Fiqh) is related to the body, Sufism (Tasawwuf) is related to the Spirit.

In Tibetan Buddhism, they speak of a person being divided into three as well, Body, Speech and Mind, but in the context of Islam, The Tibetan terminology of Body, Speech and Mind all related to the Spirit. Spirit is also termed Heart in Sufism, and in Orthodox Christianity, it is termed intellect, as true intellect arises from the heart. The area of the heart in Tibetan Buddhism is termed Mind, and relates to the Heart Chakra. Sufism and Mystic Orthodox Christianity only focus on the Heart Chakra. In Sufism one of the main dhikrs they do is the name of God, Allah, with a focus on the heart. In Mystical Orthodox Christianity, the main prayer they do is the Jesus prayer, Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me, and they are taught to focus on the heart.

In Tibetan Buddhism. Although Tibetan Buddhism expounds on all the chakras, there is a foucs on three or five chakras in the beginning, depending on the teacher. The Chakras are doorways to our spirit.

So I don't know how Sufism or Christianity could be more spiritual that Tibetan Buddhism, when they only work on one of the doorways to the spirit.

I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of the Christians and the Sufis though....
.... I have a sense that they have the feeling of a god right there with them at all times and someone to save them and help them.

Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.

Sufism, In the Quran it says, God is closer to man than his jugular vein. and God breathed into man of His Spirit.

Chrisitanity, in the Gospel, it says, "Jesus said, I and my father are one..... Is it now written in your law, I said, We are gods."

Kagyu, in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa, it says, "All sentient beings, including ourselves, already possess the primary cause for enlightenment, The Essence of the Well-gone One. As is stated in the King of Meditative Absorption Sutra, 'The Essence of the Well-Gone One pervades all migrators.' The Small Parinrivana Sutra says, "All sentient beings are the Essence of the Thus-gone One."

That is to say, All of us contain the Buddha Nature. Energetically we are all the Buddha. In reality we are all the Buddha. We just live in ignorance. There are methods that we have to attain awareness, Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen.

Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.

Every teacher teaches differently. That isn't to say, one teacher is better than the other. That is to say, if you come to one teacher who cannot introduce to the Buddha nature, than move on and find one that can. Loneliness is a by product of being unaware.

Guru Yoga in the ngondro should be helpful, in finding that connection. If not, A book that might be helpful is called, "Becoming the Compassion Buddha by Lama Yeshe."

The root text is written by the Dalai Lama and the commentary is by Lama Yeshe. The practice I do is something very similar to this practice.

Key: Guru Yoga and the Refuge Tree.

When one is initiated into Buddhist Path, one no longer moves alone, but all the Buddhas and Bodisattvas in that lineage moves with one. Their helps reaches you.

Western practitioners often have a more secular or 'scientific' background to their approach to Buddhism that doesn't emphasise as much of the more 'spiritual' or supernatural aspects as much as Asian Buddhists, or at least that is how it seems to me (I might be wrong).
As a westerner, have I developed a view of Buddhism that is too 'scientific' and therefore cut myself of from the more spiritual aspects that the theistic religions seem to focus much more on..?
... Or is that just wishful thinking?

What would you say in your opinions on this?

Thank you.

Buddhism is about the experience of the non-duality, something the intellect cannot grasp or adequately explain. Scientific approach is based on this world or the existence of daulity.

Sometimes, it is helpful to suspend your dualistic mind, and just submit to your teacher. In beginning it is necessary to use your intellect to find the right teacher. But once your have found a good teacher, that you can trust, than it becomes important to suspend your intellect from time to time, so you can experience. So you can taste. Reading about how sweet honey is, isn't that same thing as tasting honey. Both Sugar and Honey are sweet, but Honey doesn't taste like Sugar.

How can you explain color to blind person? No amount of words is going to be adequate enough to explain color to a blind person. It is something they have to experience.

[Queequeg]

Please be mindful that comparative religion discussion are not permitted at DW. The discussion is tipping into that area. Please see Dharma Paths, our sister site, if one is interested in taking up comparative or inter-tradition discussions.

[amanitamusc]

Hello, I've probably asked this question or one similar to it, but didn't explain myself well... So I'll ask in this forum and explain myself a bit better.

I'm a Buddhist and follow the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, though I also like to read some translations of the Pali suttas and I like to hear Ajahn Amaro podcasts.
I trained as a psychotherapist that included a Universalist spiritual dimension to it, Jungian, Archetypal and Sufi ideas were included.
I like the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi mysticism), I also like to read the New Testament.
However, as I said, I am firmly in the Buddhist camp.

I was a Sufi for many years. And I once followed orthodox Christianity, attracted to it's mysticism. Now I am a Buddhist, who practices the Tibetan Bon Buddhism, although I try to read books and listen to lectures from all buddhist traditions.

Sufism is inseparateable from Islam, Sufism is the mystical or spiritual aspect of Islam. In Islam they divide the person into three. Mind, Body and Spirit. Creed (Aqida) is realted to the Mind, Law (Fiqh) is related to the body, Sufism (Tasawwuf) is related to the Spirit.

In Tibetan Buddhism, they speak of a person being divided into three as well, Body, Speech and Mind, but in the context of Islam, The Tibetan terminology of Body, Speech and Mind all related to the Spirit. Spirit is also termed Heart in Sufism, and in Orthodox Christianity, it is termed intellect, as true intellect arises from the heart. The area of the heart in Tibetan Buddhism is termed Mind, and relates to the Heart Chakra. Sufism and Mystic Orthodox Christianity only focus on the Heart Chakra. In Sufism one of the main dhikrs they do is the name of God, Allah, with a focus on the heart. In Mystical Orthodox Christianity, the main prayer they do is the Jesus prayer, Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me, and they are taught to focus on the heart.

In Tibetan Buddhism. Although Tibetan Buddhism expounds on all the chakras, there is a foucs on three or five chakras in the beginning, depending on the teacher. The Chakras are doorways to our spirit.

So I don't know how Sufism or Christianity could be more spiritual that Tibetan Buddhism, when they only work on one of the doorways to the spirit.

I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of the Christians and the Sufis though....
.... I have a sense that they have the feeling of a god right there with them at all times and someone to save them and help them.

Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.

Sufism, In the Quran it says, God is closer to man than his jugular vein. and God breathed into man of His Spirit.

Chrisitanity, in the Gospel, it says, "Jesus said, I and my father are one..... Is it now written in your law, I said, We are gods."

Kagyu, in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa, it says, "All sentient beings, including ourselves, already possess the primary cause for enlightenment, The Essence of the Well-gone One. As is stated in the King of Meditative Absorption Sutra, 'The Essence of the Well-Gone One pervades all migrators.' The Small Parinrivana Sutra says, "All sentient beings are the Essence of the Thus-gone One."

That is to say, All of us contain the Buddha Nature. Energetically we are all the Buddha. In reality we are all the Buddha. We just live in ignorance. There are methods that we have to attain awareness, Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen.

Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.

Every teacher teaches differently. That isn't to say, one teacher is better than the other. That is to say, if you come to one teacher who cannot introduce to the Buddha nature, than move on and find one that can. Loneliness is a by product of being unaware.

Guru Yoga in the ngondro should be helpful, in finding that connection. If not, A book that might be helpful is called, "Becoming the Compassion Buddha by Lama Yeshe."

The root text is written by the Dalai Lama and the commentary is by Lama Yeshe. The practice I do is something very similar to this practice.

Key: Guru Yoga and the Refuge Tree.

When one is initiated into Buddhist Path, one no longer moves alone, but all the Buddhas and Bodisattvas in that lineage moves with one. Their helps reaches you.

Western practitioners often have a more secular or 'scientific' background to their approach to Buddhism that doesn't emphasise as much of the more 'spiritual' or supernatural aspects as much as Asian Buddhists, or at least that is how it seems to me (I might be wrong).
As a westerner, have I developed a view of Buddhism that is too 'scientific' and therefore cut myself of from the more spiritual aspects that the theistic religions seem to focus much more on..?
... Or is that just wishful thinking?

What would you say in your opinions on this?

Thank you.

Buddhism is about the experience of the non-duality, something the intellect cannot grasp or adequately explain. Scientific approach is based on this world or the existence of daulity.

Sometimes, it is helpful to suspend your dualistic mind, and just submit to your teacher. In beginning it is necessary to use your intellect to find the right teacher. But once your have found a good teacher, that you can trust, than it becomes important to suspend your intellect from time to time, so you can experience. So you can taste. Reading about how sweet honey is, isn't that same thing as tasting honey. Both Sugar and Honey are sweet, but Honey doesn't taste like Sugar.

How can you explain color to blind person? No amount of words is going to be adequate enough to explain color to a blind person. It is something they have to experience.

There is no spirit in Buddhism. This us just more perennialism You can respect all religions without
equating them.

[TheWhiteLotus]

There is no spirit in Buddhism. This us just more perennialism You can respect all religions without
equating them.

So when the physical body dies, what continues to live on? What word does Buddhism use to describe that?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

So when the physical body dies, what continues to live on? What word does Buddhism use to describe that?

In “Mind Only” view it’s the alaya vijnana,
a.k.a. all base consciousness,
a.k.a. storehouse consciousness,
a.k.a. 8th consciousness.

No fixed identity is attached, therefore it is not “atman”. There is no inert essence to limit possible ways it can manifest.

It’s a bit of splitting hairs If you ask me, but I’m a dilettante so take that with a grain of salt.

[tkp67]

There is no spirit in Buddhism. This us just more perennialism You can respect all religions without
equating them.

I really like the second line but it seems you are equating them by a comparison in the first.

Just a reminder regarding the mind of people with perennial belief (regardless of how it takes shape) suffer ego death at the thought of pure mortality and not all people who practice religions that teach as much as being true versus allegorical to facilitate humanitarian values.

[GDPR_Anonymized001]

Just a reminder regarding the mind of people with perennial belief (regardless of how it takes shape) suffer ego death at the thought of pure mortality and not all people who practice religions that teach as much as being true versus allegorical to facilitate humanitarian values.

What?