Buddhism, and theistic religions.
- tellyontellyon
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Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Hello, I've probably asked this question or one similar to it, but didn't explain myself well... So I'll ask in this forum and explain myself a bit better.
I'm a Buddhist and follow the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, though I also like to read some translations of the Pali suttas and I like to hear Ajahn Amaro podcasts.
I trained as a psychotherapist that included a Universalist spiritual dimension to it, Jungian, Archetypal and Sufi ideas were included.
I like the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi mysticism), I also like to read the New Testament.
However, as I said, I am firmly in the Buddhist camp.
I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of the Christians and the Sufis though....
.... I have a sense that they have the feeling of a god right there with them at all times and someone to save them and help them.
Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.
Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.
Western practitioners often have a more secular or 'scientific' background to their approach to Buddhism that doesn't emphasise as much of the more 'spiritual' or supernatural aspects as much as Asian Buddhists, or at least that is how it seems to me (I might be wrong).
As a westerner, have I developed a view of Buddhism that is too 'scientific' and therefore cut myself of from the more spiritual aspects that the theistic religions seem to focus much more on..?
... Or is that just wishful thinking?
What would you say in your opinions on this?
Thank you.
I'm a Buddhist and follow the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, though I also like to read some translations of the Pali suttas and I like to hear Ajahn Amaro podcasts.
I trained as a psychotherapist that included a Universalist spiritual dimension to it, Jungian, Archetypal and Sufi ideas were included.
I like the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi mysticism), I also like to read the New Testament.
However, as I said, I am firmly in the Buddhist camp.
I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of the Christians and the Sufis though....
.... I have a sense that they have the feeling of a god right there with them at all times and someone to save them and help them.
Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.
Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.
Western practitioners often have a more secular or 'scientific' background to their approach to Buddhism that doesn't emphasise as much of the more 'spiritual' or supernatural aspects as much as Asian Buddhists, or at least that is how it seems to me (I might be wrong).
As a westerner, have I developed a view of Buddhism that is too 'scientific' and therefore cut myself of from the more spiritual aspects that the theistic religions seem to focus much more on..?
... Or is that just wishful thinking?
What would you say in your opinions on this?
Thank you.
"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself."
- Rumi
- Rumi
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
There are parallels in all belief that reveal the true dimension of the human condition and experience
Belief of all kinds have some very common themes in regard to the human condition and experience
The buddhism I practice puts them into context of the ten realms, the pervasiveness of which comforts me as deeply as a connection to a diety.
It also (for me personally) takes away some of the differation between beliefs and makes them all relevant in a sense commensurate with my understanding of the buddhism I practice.
Belief of all kinds have some very common themes in regard to the human condition and experience
The buddhism I practice puts them into context of the ten realms, the pervasiveness of which comforts me as deeply as a connection to a diety.
It also (for me personally) takes away some of the differation between beliefs and makes them all relevant in a sense commensurate with my understanding of the buddhism I practice.
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Have you looked into the Chenrezig or Amitabha practices? They both involve a continual sense of the buddha, which is beneficial to self and others. In the Kagyu lineage, Bokar Rinpoche and Kalu Rinpoche have some helpful teachings on these buddhas.
In Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life, he says the buddhas have unobstructed vision, and we stand in front of them. Especially if you practice some form of buddha-remembrance over time, this statement becomes less abstract.
In Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life, he says the buddhas have unobstructed vision, and we stand in front of them. Especially if you practice some form of buddha-remembrance over time, this statement becomes less abstract.
Namu Amida Butsu
- KathyLauren
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Years ago, when I was just starting out with Tibetan Buddhism, I had serious doubts about the reality of bodhisattvas and meditational deities. As a scientist, I did not believe in anything supernatural.tellyontellyon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.
And then I came across one line in a puja that made it clear. "You [the deity] are the manifestation of the emptiness and awareness of my own mind." You can not get more real and more immediate than that! Being a manifestation of my own mind is about as "right there" as you can get.
The abilities and powers attributed to the deities are abilities and powers in my own mind, if only I can develop the concentration to access them. To the extent that I can access them (limited to say the least!), they most assuredly do help me and guide me.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
"Theos," "God," "pure Mind," "tathata," and so on, are simply metaphors for the unconditioned (asaṃskṛta) which we can only guess at unlike a Buddha who awakened to it. Buddhism (the religion of awakening) tells us that we already have the buddha or awakened nature. One just has to transcend the illusion that makes it seem unrealized (the hard part of the journey).tellyontellyon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
You can ask Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, they have been ‘there’ for me. The downside of relying exclusively on devotion devoid of wisdom is that once your devotion lessens (as it is bound to) you fall further.
Anyway, IME most Tibetan practitioners believe that Buddha’s and Bodhisattvas are actively available to help.
Anyway, IME most Tibetan practitioners believe that Buddha’s and Bodhisattvas are actively available to help.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
what makes you feel buddhist?tellyontellyon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm Hello, I've probably asked this question or one similar to it, but didn't explain myself well... So I'll ask in this forum and explain myself a bit better.
I'm a Buddhist and follow the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, though I also like to read some translations of the Pali suttas and I like to hear Ajahn Amaro podcasts.
I trained as a psychotherapist that included a Universalist spiritual dimension to it, Jungian, Archetypal and Sufi ideas were included.
I like the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi mysticism), I also like to read the New Testament.
However, as I said, I am firmly in the Buddhist camp.
be carefull with the extremes, by relying in a mundane god one is bounded to it's power.
I do sometimes feel a bit jealous of the Christians and the Sufis though....
.... I have a sense that they have the feeling of a god right there with them at all times and someone to save them and help them.
having respect for religious diversity is enough to make everyone happy.
Is there something similar in Buddhism? Is the Buddha or Bodhisattvas 'right there' to hear you or help you or guide you in the same sense?
What is the view of Tibetan Buddhism of this and Mahayana schools more widely.
yes, but "help" is not much like by making samsara more comfortable. for example, if one is hungry then the "help" is of the kind "look at hunger, find it's cause, put end to it" and not a sandwich.
somethimes help can come as more normal things like a sandwich, yes, but it isn't really the point.
man, when you do buddhist practice -be i postrations, mantra, reading sutra, etc.- you are never alone.Sometimes as a Buddhist I feel lonely and would like there to be a 'god' like being or beings around me to listen, help and guide me... .. but I don't want to fool myself either.
i don't know, buddhism is a matter of facts. we don't expect to be saved but do our best to open our eyes. it's damn difficult.
Western practitioners often have a more secular or 'scientific' background to their approach to Buddhism that doesn't emphasise as much of the more 'spiritual' or supernatural aspects as much as Asian Buddhists, or at least that is how it seems to me (I might be wrong).
As a westerner, have I developed a view of Buddhism that is too 'scientific' and therefore cut myself of from the more spiritual aspects that the theistic religions seem to focus much more on..?
... Or is that just wishful thinking?
this is how i understand it. somethimes is like a burden haha the burden of being responsible.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
yeah! sometimes i don't know how to go ahead, then i remember and call for avalokiteshvara, GP, and alike, is really encouraging. is something like faith or my imagination, but It feels good, like being emotionally nurtured for a while, like when you're a kid and comes back with mom to recharge batteries. and then one can get ahead..Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:42 am You can ask Buddhas and Bodhisattvas for help, they have been ‘there’ for me. The downside of relying exclusively on devotion devoid of wisdom is that once your devotion lessens (as it is bound to) you fall further.
Anyway, IME most Tibetan practitioners believe that Buddha’s and Bodhisattvas are actively available to help.
now i read and sounds ridiculous, but it actually is that way haha even the Dalai Lama relies on Avalokiteshvara for find courage when feeling discouraged and alike, so he said.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Yes. They are (or can be) available to help with life problems and spiritual growth both. Obviously as Buddhist deities then premise is that samsara cannot be made satisfying, so the latter application is the most important. It’s in the latter application that you see them as you open mind.Anyway, IME most Tibetan practitioners believe that Buddha’s and Bodhisattvas are actively available to help.
Or so I think today.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Yeah, to continue on this theme, the more noble ones prayers and aspirations, I think the more the ‘help’ feels tangible.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
- Kim O'Hara
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:03 am ... i don't know, buddhism is a matter of facts. we don't expect to be saved but do our best to open our eyes. it's damn difficult.
this is how i understand it. somethimes is like a burden haha the burden of being responsible.
Well said!
Kim
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Karmapa Khyenno!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Student to Chime Rinpoche. “ Is Tara symbolic of a functioning of the mind”. ? Chime R..” yes it’s ok to think like that...just as long as you remember that you are also a symbol of HER mind.”
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Some relevant materials available online:
Chan Practice and Faith by Chan Master Sheng Yen
Popular Deities of Chinese Buddhism by Kuan Ming
In book:
Bodhisattva of Compassion: The Mystical Tradition of Kuan Yin by John Blofeld
Discovering Kwan Yin, Buddhist Goddess of Compassion by Sandy Boucher
Chan Practice and Faith by Chan Master Sheng Yen
Popular Deities of Chinese Buddhism by Kuan Ming
In book:
Bodhisattva of Compassion: The Mystical Tradition of Kuan Yin by John Blofeld
Discovering Kwan Yin, Buddhist Goddess of Compassion by Sandy Boucher
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
- tellyontellyon
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
At the moment I'm reading 'The Teaching of The Buddha', produced by Bukkyō Dendō Kyōkai. It talks about the Eternal Buddha,
"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself."
- Rumi
- Rumi
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
there where many concepts that seemed impossible to grasp that years later make total sense to me and this is one of thosetellyontellyon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:41 am At the moment I'm reading 'The Teaching of The Buddha', produced by Bukkyō Dendō Kyōkai. It talks about the Eternal Buddha,
From a Mahayana POV if everyone has a latent buddhist potential that need just be realized then from human perspective buddha nature is all encompassing over the term which is those context relative to humanity itself is "eternal"
this is why for me the teachings themselves comfort me as if buddha was in attendance although I admit it may seem convoluted or a bit of a grasp it seems minimally as if there are writings on the walls of the cave and more manifest it is as if the unseen mind of buddha is here for us at all times
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Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an5.43“Householder, there are these five things that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world. What five? Long life, householder, is wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world. Beauty … Happiness … Fame … The heavens are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world. These are the five things that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world.
“These five things, householder, that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world, I say, are not obtained by means of prayers or aspirations. If these five things that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world could be obtained by means of prayers or aspirations, who here would be lacking in anything?"
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
If you have not done so, read the Lotus Sutra. That's about the Eternal Buddha you find in East Asia - the one that is referred to in BDK's outline of Buddhism. Read the sutra as a novel - it doesn't have pithy instructions - that's not the message conveyed. Just let the story play out. Let the literary devices play in your mind. Don't skip around. Its meant to be read through.tellyontellyon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:41 am At the moment I'm reading 'The Teaching of The Buddha', produced by Bukkyō Dendō Kyōkai. It talks about the Eternal Buddha,
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Well said, especially read Ch. 25 the famous chapter about Guanyin/Kannon BodhisattvaQueequeg wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:54 pmIf you have not done so, read the Lotus Sutra. That's about the Eternal Buddha you find in East Asia - the one that is referred to in BDK's outline of Buddhism. Read the sutra as a novel - it doesn't have pithy instructions - that's not the message conveyed. Just let the story play out. Let the literary devices play in your mind. Don't skip around. Its meant to be read through.tellyontellyon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:41 am At the moment I'm reading 'The Teaching of The Buddha', produced by Bukkyō Dendō Kyōkai. It talks about the Eternal Buddha,
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus25.htmAT THAT TIME Inexhaustible Intention Bodhisattva rose from his seat, uncovered his right shoulder, placed his palms together, and facing the Buddha, said, "World Honored One, for what reason is the Bodhisattva Guanshiyin called 'Guanshiyin'?"
The Buddha told Inexhaustible Intention Bodhisattva, "Good man, if any of the limitless hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of living beings who are undergoing all kinds of suffering hear of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva and recite his name single-mindedly, Guanshiyin Bodhisattva will immediately hear their voices and rescue them.....
I have great faith in Kannon sama and so does most of East Asia!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
One interesting thing to think about is that experiences arise, but they arise with out any labels. We don't really know what, if anything, they are pointing to outside of our experience. So an experience of God may be the experience of something else, but we label it an experience of God. From a Buddhist perspective, an experience of God may be a just a fleeting emotion, or an experience of one's inherent Buddha nature, or it may be energy passing by. An experience of the "Holy Spirit" from Christianity is, in my experience, the same as an experience of prana or qi. Christians take it as evidence of an external God, but non-Christians do not.
It becomes more problematic because when we consider emptiness, there is really no separation. So the idea of an external deity, or even an external world, is problematic since both the mind and the world are empty and interdependent.
It becomes more problematic because when we consider emptiness, there is really no separation. So the idea of an external deity, or even an external world, is problematic since both the mind and the world are empty and interdependent.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser