Saw that it was already discussed here aboard.
viewtopic.php?t=9816
Herewith i am enough informed about the aspect of D.T. and am happy to know that Drollo is considered something like the essence of Kilaya, what was seen by some here as wrong.
Saw that it was already discussed here aboard.
Yes, but I wanted a textual source, not just an oral teaching that contradicts ever other text and oral teaching I've ever read/received.Sennin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pmIt's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD
On the thread you linked Malcolm said, " I have also been told, in connection with the Tersar lineage that Drollo is considered something like the essence of Kilaya and when I talked with Shenphen Rinpoche, he confirmed that indeed, all the instructions from Namchag Putri concerning Dzogchen etc., were applicable to Drollo since there is no elaborate set ofseperate teachings on Dzogchen for Drollo."kalden yungdrung wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:02 pmSaw that it was already discussed here aboard.
viewtopic.php?t=9816
Herewith i am enough informed about the aspect of D.T. and am happy to know that Drollo is considered something like the essence of Kilaya, what was seen by some here as wrong.
OK so, a couple things:michaelb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:43 pmYes, but I wanted a textual source, not just an oral teaching that contradicts ever other text and oral teaching I've ever read/received.
In the teachings you quote, which I think I listened to online when they were first given, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says, "In the kingdom of Shang Shung, the three most important guardians were called Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. One of these three was called Ati Muwer and was extremely powerful. When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod. This is the story."
A textual source would explain where this was written and what terma this account comes from. There are a few problems with the story. Most obviously, the sex of the tiger. In every terma I've ever seen, the tiger is female. The Tigress is not some male guardian that's creating problems and is subjugated (the riding being a sign of the subjugation) but the consort or yum of rDo rje Gro lod, blissfully flying through space. The other issue concerns Ati Muwer. The Ati Muwer found in Bon as far as i've seen is nothing like a wrathful guardian local spirit. He's a peaceful lama, lineage originator figure.
That's why a textual source and something carrying a bit more weight, like the account of a terton who found a rdo rje gro lod related terma would be useful. Samten Lingpa discovered a number of termas including a namthar of Dorje Drolo and a namthar of Yeshe Tsogyal. In his Tsogyal namthar he says,
"That same evening, inconceivable signs occurred. The Guru arose as Dorje Drolo (united with Tsogyal in the form of Ekadzati and with Khyidren transformed into the tigress). He subjugated Tibet and its four surrounding regions, along with all the gods and spirits of a million universes. Riding upon the tigress, into which the girl Khyidren had been transformed, the Guru in union with Yeshe Tsogyal remained absorbed in the samadhi of Vajrakila. He was brandishing in his right hand a nine-pointed vajra, and in his left he twirled a metal phurba, projecting countless wrathful and ferocious emanations identical to himself."
So, I would like a source for the "story" that the tiger (male?) is Ati Muwer, beyond just a repetition of the claim that it is. And hopefully from a terton who discovered a rdo rje gro lod terma.
According to the DT Drollo chronicle, while at Paro Taktsang, Guru Rinpoche manifested the vajrakhrodasamadhi, the samadhi of vajra wrath, out of which he arose in the form of Dorje Drollo. If you examine any Kilaya sadhana, you will discover a line that says, "Vajra wrath severs hatred" or something of this nature. The source of this idea of mine is the late Yeshe Phunstog, an American who was a very close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche, and Gyatrul Rinpoche's right hand man for many years. His main practice was Dudjom Drollo. He informed me of this on the occasion Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje's bestowal of the Dudjom Drollo in Boston, Ma., 1992, when asked, Ngakpa Rinpoche confirmed this. "Gro bo lod" is a corruption of krodhalokottāra, which is why the main sadhana of Dorje Drollo in the DT begins with "Namo mahāguru vajra krodhalokottāraye."
Oh I see, sorry I can't help you any further. Peace.michaelb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:43 pm...So, I would like a source for the "story" that the tiger (male?) is Ati Muwer, beyond just a repetition of the claim that it is. And hopefully from a terton who discovered a rdo rje gro lod terma.
sorry. I was just interested in finding a textual source for the rather unique claim. Are you saying Adzom Drukpa's terma is a source because I've not seen that bit.Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 pm OK so, a couple things:
In the world of Vajrayana, where quite a lot of amazing stories are told, of various things happening, either demons manifesting as this or that or Buddhas manifesting as this or that, with all kinds of miracles, and so on and so forth, the one big hiccup you have - of all the fantastic things told - is that an apparently male being named Ati Muwer manifested as a female tigress in heat? And, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu never said anything about a male tiger, it was always a female tigress, so why do you automatically assume the tiger is male and not female?
Seriously? Why not complain that it's impossible that Pehar manifested as a gigantic scorpion, because according to biology, scorpions don't get that large? Why is it not possible for there to be a female manifestation from a male manifestation? And as for Ati Muwer being presented in Bon as being peaceful, why not? The explanation here from Dorje Drollo is not from Bon, but from Vajrayana.
Another thing, seeing as you discount Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is that he was regarded as the rebirth of Adzom Drugpa, a terton. Who discovered a Dorje Drollo cycle. So technically Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did discover a Dorje Drollo cycle, just not in this life, but in his previous life.
Unfortunately Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has manifested his passing, which means I or others cannot ask him about the source for the Ati Muwer bit, but even if Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was still here, if I had some pressing matter to ask him, this would not be it. At least not via email. Perhaps if we had a long casual lunch together in Dzamling Gar or something like that. But even then there's a number of things I can think of that I'd ask him before this.
In Vajrayana there are very often two or more different stories for the same thing. Either slight variances or rather big ones, and the different sources are all just as trustworthy. That should tell you something about the limitations of dualistic vision in itself.
Not sure I follow. So because Drolo is Vajra Khroda Lokottara this connects him with Vajrakilaya because of རྡོ་རྗེ་ཁྲོ་བོས་ཞེ་སྡང་གཅོད?Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:52 pmAccording to the DT Drollo chronicle, while at Paro Taktsang, Guru Rinpoche manifested the vajrakhrodasamadhi, the samadhi of vajra wrath, out of which he arose in the form of Dorje Drollo. If you examine any Kilaya sadhana, you will discover a line that says, "Vajra wrath severs hatred" or something of this nature. The source of this idea of mine is the late Yeshe Phunstog, an American who was a very close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche, and Gyatrul Rinpoche's right hand man for many years. His main practice was Dudjom Drollo. He informed me of this on the occasion Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje's bestowal of the Dudjom Drollo in Boston, Ma., 1992, when asked, Ngakpa Rinpoche confirmed this. "Gro bo lod" is a corruption of krodhalokottāra, which is why the main sadhana of Dorje Drollo in the DT begins with "Namo mahāguru vajra krodhalokottāraye."
Now, then, I know what Shenphen Rinpoche told me, and I know what Ngakpa RInpoche said, and I know what Yeshe Phuntsog said. I don't know, nor do I much care, what other Lamas say. You are free, of course, to follow anyone's opinion you find more credible than mine.
I don't know if the source is from his cycle, it's large, and I don't read Tibetan. ChNN did not mention what the source was. So I don't know.
Like I said at the end of my last post, there's often different statements about the same thing. In this case the tigress is described as being in her first heat:Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."
This is not correct, actually Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, a terton and another direct disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche made it very clear that not only was the tigress in heat, it was in its first heat. Not only this, but in 1992, I separately heard this from Bakha Tulku.
It is not weird at all. It just does not correspond to other traditions you heard. The first time I heard the Ati Muwer identification was in 1992, personally, not in a teaching, from ChNN when I showed him a small image of Drollo which he blessed. You never know with CHNN, it might be something he learned in his dreams. One never knows.but it's weird if idiosyncratic ideas like Ati Muwer being the tigress is the only view presented here rather than it being explained as the uncommon story it is.
Yes.
No doubt. Here's a discussion from a Bhutanese perspective.
Recall in many instances there are presentations of a single topic from the aspect of outer, inner, secret, innermost secret, etc, or from other contexts. And sometimes these things vary (just look at the differences of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana). It is for that reason I am saying that to approach these things from the viewpoint of mere dualistic vision can produce some very problematic situations, if one allows it to go too far.michaelb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:53 pmNo doubt. Here's a discussion from a Bhutanese perspective.
https://somkinga.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -taktsang/
True. And I'm not opposed to a multiplicity of ideas, just as long as these ideas and stories are presented as one of a number rather than the only account.
thanks.Dudom Rinpoche's collected works, vol 15; ppg. 115-116, beginning on the bottom of 115.
Sure. I agree.Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:01 pmOf course if something is straight out wrong and inaccurate, then that is to be discarded, like faulty translations or what have you not. But if the source is a realized master and terton, like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Dudjom Rinpoche, Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche, and so on, then it's worth considering, even if it may seem to be contradictory...
michaelb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:21 pmsorry. I was just interested in finding a textual source for the rather unique claim. Are you saying Adzom Drukpa's terma is a source because I've not seen that bit.Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 pm OK so, a couple things:
In the world of Vajrayana, where quite a lot of amazing stories are told, of various things happening, either demons manifesting as this or that or Buddhas manifesting as this or that, with all kinds of miracles, and so on and so forth, the one big hiccup you have - of all the fantastic things told - is that an apparently male being named Ati Muwer manifested as a female tigress in heat? And, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu never said anything about a male tiger, it was always a female tigress, so why do you automatically assume the tiger is male and not female?
Seriously? Why not complain that it's impossible that Pehar manifested as a gigantic scorpion, because according to biology, scorpions don't get that large? Why is it not possible for there to be a female manifestation from a male manifestation? And as for Ati Muwer being presented in Bon as being peaceful, why not? The explanation here from Dorje Drollo is not from Bon, but from Vajrayana.
Another thing, seeing as you discount Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is that he was regarded as the rebirth of Adzom Drugpa, a terton. Who discovered a Dorje Drollo cycle. So technically Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did discover a Dorje Drollo cycle, just not in this life, but in his previous life.
Unfortunately Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has manifested his passing, which means I or others cannot ask him about the source for the Ati Muwer bit, but even if Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was still here, if I had some pressing matter to ask him, this would not be it. At least not via email. Perhaps if we had a long casual lunch together in Dzamling Gar or something like that. But even then there's a number of things I can think of that I'd ask him before this.
In Vajrayana there are very often two or more different stories for the same thing. Either slight variances or rather big ones, and the different sources are all just as trustworthy. That should tell you something about the limitations of dualistic vision in itself.
Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."
Sorry if I've offended anyone. I don't come here often but i think clarity is important and often things about deities are conveyed as if they are the accepted view whereas they are actually either total mistranslations (diamond guts, hanging belly, etc.) or very uncommonly held views held by a very small number of lamas. I'm not opposed to a multiplicity of views or interpretations but it's weird if idiosyncratic ideas like Ati Muwer being the tigress is the only view presented here rather than it being explained as the uncommon story it is.
So, to clarify, in most teachings I've received or read regarding Drollo his name has nothing to do with stomachs, he's not the essence of Vajrakilaya, the tigress is Tashi Khyidren, and she is pregnant. All the other versions you see presented as the only truth, like the Ati Muwer claim above, are uncommon but add to the colour of the mythos.
Tashi delek,michaelb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:53 pmNo doubt. Here's a discussion from a Bhutanese perspective.
https://somkinga.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -taktsang/
If you could give me a reference for either Dudjom Lingpa or Adzom Drukpa, that would be great. Thanks.