Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
She was one of his several wives in the 80s and a member of his inner circle. I don't know her personally but that much is not disputed by anyone.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Magnus, are you suggesting that we should not just take everything that Hays says at face value but that we should actually examine her statements at least somwhat critically? What a novel idea!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Yes, that is what I am suggesting.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:49 pm
Magnus, are you suggesting that we should not just take everything that Hays says at face value but that we should actually examine her statements at least somwhat critically? What a novel idea!
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
It would be great if investigative journalists looked into what she has to say. The cat story has a certain amount of collaboration. I believe her.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:49 pm
Magnus, are you suggesting that we should not just take everything that Hays says at face value but that we should actually examine her statements at least somwhat critically? What a novel idea!
In any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Greg wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 amIn any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.
The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Wait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 am
The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
I have no idea about the Akong claims.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 amGreg wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 amIn any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.
The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
No, we don't know, and neither doea Hays, at best she's repeating something she's heard second hand.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 amGreg wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 amIn any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.
The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
What we can do is make an educated judgement however. As I mentioned, I lived at Samye Ling for several years, and knew AR up to his death in 2013 ...I seen Akong Rinpoche often, dealing with him directly, in private also, he never betrayed his calm and humble personality, he played himself down and never portrayed himself as a siddha or even a Lama. He was always reliable, like a rock. I've also seen him overcome seemingly impossible situations and move on to the next thing as if nothing happened. He was a really exceptional person.
One of my closest friends was his attendant for nearly 20 years, travelled with him all over world, spent the vast majority of his days at his side. He said to me once that he never seen AR lose his composure or be phased by anything whatsoever.
I could recount stories about him which stuck with me, especially regarding his death, before and after, but i won't here, but i am 100% convinced he was a person of quality, no scandals, but also no big fanfare.
So i might not 'know'... but I've got a pretty good idea.
s.
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
I can tell you that the plan to seize control of Nova Scotia by force if necessary was still paid lip service to at Vajrayana seminary as late as the early aughts. Not sure if anyone ever spilled those beans before Leslie.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Rinchen Samphel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 amWait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 amThe point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
You guys do know that beatings were common in pre-PRC monasteries, right?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 amRinchen Samphel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 amWait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 amThe point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.
The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
PeterC wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 amdzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 amRinchen Samphel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 amWait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.
If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.
The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.
I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, as to what she heard second hand...no one alive can say one way or anotherdzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 amPeterC wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 amdzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am
If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.
The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.
I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Has anyone heard Akong Rinpoche's younger brother, Lama Yeshe Losal Rinpoche's, take on the situation?
He was good friends with CTR in the early days, who it seems was regarded as bad influence on him by others, particularly AR. However, he eventually came around, returned to Samye Ling and became a great yogi. Having been on both sides, I'd be interested to know how views CTR, his legacy and Shambala these days. Did he completely come round to AR's perspective?
He was good friends with CTR in the early days, who it seems was regarded as bad influence on him by others, particularly AR. However, he eventually came around, returned to Samye Ling and became a great yogi. Having been on both sides, I'd be interested to know how views CTR, his legacy and Shambala these days. Did he completely come round to AR's perspective?
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:23 amShe seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, as to what she heard second hand...no one alive can say one way or anotherdzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 amI don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
Very good. She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, so her other statements are worthy of discussion. At least that's how it seems to me.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR
Far, though there is a world of difference between first- and second-hand reports, and in this case we need to take note of where she received this story from.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 amPeterC wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 amdzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am
If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.
The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.
I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
I think you’ve heard the consensus on Akong Rinpoche’s character on this thread - he couldn’t be more different from CTR. It may be worth your reading a little about him. I find him a very inspiring person.