Yes, and your sources for this statement is?Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
/magnus
Yes, and your sources for this statement is?Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
Well, I guess I am my own source!heart wrote:Yes, and your sources for this statement is?Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
/magnus
Look in Drikung Kagyu. This is merely one example.Lay-Man wrote:Well, I guess I am my own source!heart wrote:Yes, and your sources for this statement is?Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
/magnus
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.
If you have something, I would love to see it.
I gave you 2 already from the 13th century, not good enough?Lay-Man wrote:Well, I guess I am my own source!heart wrote:Yes, and your sources for this statement is?Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
/magnus
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.
If you have something, I would love to see it.
Cheers.
Is there anywhere we can read of these yogic benefits of prostrations? Or generally speaking is it just that they help balance the various vayus?Malcolm wrote:Prostrations in the early history of Tibetan Buddhism seem to have been combined with purification practices. Sakya Pandita writes about this. He also points out that their yogic benefit is extraordinary.yagmort wrote:well i am not questioning benefits of ngöndro, i already done 90k prostrations and doing ~900 each day. my question is about history research of ngöndro.
Ok thanks!Malcolm wrote:Look in Drikung Kagyu. This is merely one example.Lay-Man wrote:Well, I guess I am my own source!heart wrote:
Yes, and your sources for this statement is?
/magnus
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.
If you have something, I would love to see it.
Thanks!Lay-Man wrote:Aemilius wrote:In the Life of Tsongkhapa by Robert Thurman, he describes how Tsongkhapa practiced the preliminaries like prostrations, offering the mandala, etc ... And Tsongkhapa lived 1357... 1419.Lay-Man wrote:
The 111,1111 accumulations are a new invention relatively speaking. My own research seems to indicate this was a product of the 18th century revitalization and codification of the Sarma Traditions associated Khyentse, Kongtrul and Wangpo.
According to Wikipedia the preliminary practices of Vajrasattva, Mandala offering, and Guru yoga existed already in India, in the tradition of Anuttara yoga tantra.
Perhaps there is some confusion created by my initial response to yagmort's question and I will attempt to clarify here.
Yagmort was asking about when the practice of actually accumulating 111,111 recitations of each of the 4 extraordinary practices associated with Ngondro came about. Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
That being said, of course the existence of preliminary practices in general go back to India. However, the wikipedia page is wrong in that the preliminaries as they were practiced in Tibet, while stemming from the 3 vehicles of Buddhism in India, were indeed a Tibetan invention (perhaps around the 10th or 11th century); that is the codification of the 4 extra-ordinary preliminary practices of Formal Refuge and Bodhicitta, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Guru Yoga. In particular, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Guru Yoga in whole are Tibetan constructs of Vajrayana implementation.
Hope this helps.
yagmort wrote:so does anybody know when did the ngondro the way it is practiced today - that is accumulating 111000 of each -
first appear?
Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.Lay-Man wrote:yagmort wrote:so does anybody know when did the ngondro the way it is practiced today - that is accumulating 111000 of each -
first appear?
Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.
Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations \!
Thanks Malcom. This is certainly a good lead for sure. I will look more thoroughly. Thanks for the link.Malcolm wrote:Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.Lay-Man wrote:yagmort wrote:so does anybody know when did the ngondro the way it is practiced today - that is accumulating 111000 of each -
first appear?
Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.
Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations \!
tA ra nA tha , thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho , tshogs gnyis rgya mtsho , 'jam dbyangs mkhyen rab rgya mtsho . "kha 1) thun mong gi sngon 'gro/." In jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i dpe tshogs/ . TBRC W1PD95746. 20: 35 - 91. khreng tu'u: si khron dpe skrun tshogs pa / si khron mi rigs dpe skrun khang , 2009. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O1PD95746|O1PD ... $W1PD95746
Taranatha is the late 16th-early 17th century, and he certainly did not invent the idea. I did not investigate whether other prelims had similar numbers assigned.
Looks like I erred -- this text was written in the fifteenth rab 'buying, sometime in the nineteenth century.Lay-Man wrote:Thanks Malcom. This is certainly a good lead for sure. I will look more thoroughly. Thanks for the link.Malcolm wrote:Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.Lay-Man wrote:
Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.
Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations \!
tA ra nA tha , thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho , tshogs gnyis rgya mtsho , 'jam dbyangs mkhyen rab rgya mtsho . "kha 1) thun mong gi sngon 'gro/." In jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i dpe tshogs/ . TBRC W1PD95746. 20: 35 - 91. khreng tu'u: si khron dpe skrun tshogs pa / si khron mi rigs dpe skrun khang , 2009. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O1PD95746|O1PD ... $W1PD95746
Taranatha is the late 16th-early 17th century, and he certainly did not invent the idea. I did not investigate whether other prelims had similar numbers assigned.
I also explored much of the Drikung Kagyu texts I could find, including Gong Chik, and I didn't seem to find anything codified until around the 17th Century?
Dunno. I don't know why I get on these neurotic tangents, but any how the info is great!
perhaps magnus will finally unveil the info since he is faniliar with these booksLay-Man wrote:...Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online...
Perhaps I have misunderstood the issue here, is it the numbers (100.000) you are fixating on? Tibetans consider 100.000 a fair amount not really a lot. 100 millions is something they feel is a lot. I am pretty sure the practice of repeating prayers and mantras and counting the amount is as old as the history of Tantra in Tibet. I have no particular source for this nor have I ever been looking for one. The idea that accumulating merit and wisdom will be helpful for practicing the main part is likewise very old. This is quite clear in the books I linked to but they don't in particular mention the number 100.000 that I can recall.yagmort wrote:Layman, thank you for your efforts and time!
also thanks Malcolm for your attempts to shine the light on this subject too
perhaps magnus will finally unveil the info since he is faniliar with these booksLay-Man wrote:...Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online...
It is much easier to do - because no sports!heart wrote:.................................................................yagmort wrote:Layman, thank you for your efforts and time!
also thanks Malcolm for your attempts to shine the light on this subject too
perhaps magnus will finally unveil the info since he is faniliar with these booksLay-Man wrote:...Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online...
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If people feel they have difficulties accumulating the Ngondro it will not get a lot easier accumulating the numbers for the approach, close approach, accomplishment and great accomplishment of a Yidam practice where the numbers normally are considerably higher.
/magnus
Sravakayana tradition knows two types of bowing, the bowing with respectful salutation of hands, añjali-kamma, and the five limbed prostration, pañc'anga-vandana. It is not clear if the second type of prostration occurs in the beginning of the Mahayana Sutras.pemachophel wrote:In the beginning of many Mahayana sutras, the interlocutor is described as first prostrating to the Chom-den-de (i.e., Buddha) before sitting down and asking his or her question.
100.000 isn't considered a lot in Tibetan culture. Pretty sure that haven't changed the last 1000 years or so. If you prefer you can also do Ngöndro based on time like Dzongsar Khyentse's Ngondrogar, 2258 hours for a complete Chetsun Nyingtik Ngöndro.yagmort wrote:yes magnus, finally! )) my question is "fixated" on numbers, or better say on accumulating 111000 of them.
by asking such a question i am not arguing about benefits or disadvantages of ngöndro. merely, as i am not a scholar myself, i am asking more informed and educated people.