Arya-bodhisattvas have realised the emptiness of all appearances, so they are not bound by them any more. Arhats are also free from clinging to phenomena, so they are not bound by samsara either. The difference in the case of bodhisattvas, as you say, is that they are driven by bodhicitta. Since arhats do not have bodhicitta, there is no cause of birth at all. And that is why it is repeated in Mahayana scriptures that the most important thing is to have compassion for all beings, otherwise a bodhisattva strays to the path of sravakas and ends birth in nirvana.Wayfarer wrote:That is because bodhisattvas are able to be voluntarily re-born - as the statement says - out of 'compassion and prayer' rather than being compelled by karma and klesa. But, nowhere does this statement say that Arhats are re-born anywhere, I had understood that the whole condition of the Arhat was 'no further re-birth'.
The attainment of the Arhats
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Yup that's what I thought.Malcolm wrote:Rakz wrote:Does it say this anywhere in the suttas?Tsongkhapafan wrote:I understand that they take rebirth in Hinayana Pure Lands.
No, this idea advanced by TKF finds no scriptural basis in sūtra, tantra, vinaya, abhidharma or anywhere else.
I know because I looked.
Also, the five pure abodes are not buddhafields/pure lands. They are perishable realms in the sense that beings are born there and pass away. They are in fact part of samsara.
TKF you are very mistaken on this. Read the actual suttas where the Buddha talks about arahats rather than going by what your teacher says. That's the best advice I can give you.
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Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Astus wrote:Arya-bodhisattvas have realised the emptiness of all appearances, so they are not bound by them any more. Arhats are also free from clinging to phenomena, so they are not bound by samsara either. The difference in the case of bodhisattvas, as you say, is that they are driven by bodhicitta. Since arhats do not have bodhicitta, there is no cause of birth at all. And that is why it is repeated in Mahayana scriptures that the most important thing is to have compassion for all beings, otherwise a bodhisattva strays to the path of sravakas and ends birth in nirvana.Wayfarer wrote:That is because bodhisattvas are able to be voluntarily re-born - as the statement says - out of 'compassion and prayer' rather than being compelled by karma and klesa. But, nowhere does this statement say that Arhats are re-born anywhere, I had understood that the whole condition of the Arhat was 'no further re-birth'.
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/
http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
This is not very good advice, at least not as written.Rakz wrote: TKF you are very mistaken on this. Read the actual suttas where the Buddha talks about arahats rather than going by what your teacher says. That's the best advice I can give you.
If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.
If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.
In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands"). The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
You would rather follow what your teacher says even if what he/she says is completely false and contradicts what the Buddha actually said in the scriptures? That's mind boggling. I wouldn't trust any teacher who would say something like that no matter how "traditional" they appear to be. What's wrong is wrong.kirtu wrote:This is not very good advice, at least not as written.Rakz wrote: TKF you are very mistaken on this. Read the actual suttas where the Buddha talks about arahats rather than going by what your teacher says. That's the best advice I can give you.
If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.
If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.
In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands"). The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.
Kirt
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
So from Wilkerson's Yogini Eye, Three Paths One Result, pg 68, after quoting from the Lankavatara Sutra
So while not establishing a hierarchy of "Hinayana Pure Lands" this is an explicit statement by one of the greatest Tibetan Buddhist scholars stating that from the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism Arhats are indeed reborn in a pure realm.
Kirt
the text quotes from Buton Rinchen Drup who explicitly states that Arhats are reborn in a pure realm and then later aroused by a Buddha.After attainment of a samadhi body ...
At that moment, rebirth will occur in a lotus blossom in a completely pure [yet ultimately] transitory realm; [this is what is meant by] "after attainment of a samadhi body."
So while not establishing a hierarchy of "Hinayana Pure Lands" this is an explicit statement by one of the greatest Tibetan Buddhist scholars stating that from the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism Arhats are indeed reborn in a pure realm.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
- Tsongkhapafan
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Thanks for this - Buton is a great source too.kirtu wrote:So from Wilkerson's Yogini Eye, Three Paths One Result, pg 68, after quoting from the Lankavatara Sutra
the text quotes from Buton Rinchen Drup who explicitly states that Arhats are reborn in a pure realm and then later aroused by a Buddha.After attainment of a samadhi body ...
At that moment, rebirth will occur in a lotus blossom in a completely pure [yet ultimately] transitory realm; [this is what is meant by] "after attainment of a samadhi body."
So while not establishing a hierarchy of "Hinayana Pure Lands" this is an explicit statement by one of the greatest Tibetan Buddhist scholars stating that from the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism Arhats are indeed reborn in a pure realm.
Kirt
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Chapter 7 of the Lotus Sutra mentions the apparitional/phantom city as a temporary rest for those with insufficient faith as a reference to sravakas.kirtu wrote:the text quotes from Buton Rinchen Drup who explicitly states that Arhats are reborn in a pure realm and then later aroused by a Buddha.
"Knowing that they have reached nirvana
And attained arhatship, the Buddha immediately
Gathers the great assembly together
And teaches the True Dharma.
All the buddhas explain and teach
The three vehicles through skillful means.
Although there is only the single buddha vehicle,
They teach two in order to provide a place of rest."
(Lotus Sutra, BDK ed, p 138)
Vasubandhu explains the parable as:
"The arrogance [of those who] refer to what is actually nothing as something. Having [attained] mundane meditative trances and meditational attainments, they form the notion [that what they have attained is] nirvana, [though] [what they have] actually [attained] is not nirvana. It should be known that “The Parable of the Phantom City” is given as the antidote to this misconception.
...
[The parable] for the fourth type of person cause him, through expedient means, to enter the city of nirvana. The “city of nirvana” refers to the city of contemplations and meditative trances. Having gone past this city, he is then later made to enter the city of great nirvana."
(The Commentary on the Lotus Sutra, in Tiantai Lotus Texts, BDK ed, p 138-139)
So, what Buton seems to say and what Vasubandhu says is that arhats are not actually arhats, just people stuck within an absorption (dhyana).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
No, this is not a standard Sakya view.kirtu wrote:This is not very good advice, at least not as written.Rakz wrote: TKF you are very mistaken on this. Read the actual suttas where the Buddha talks about arahats rather than going by what your teacher says. That's the best advice I can give you.
If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.
If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.
In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands"). The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.
Kirt
The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.
Buton's views on this and that are not main stream Sakya.
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
The facts are that even definitive sutras are interpreted to say nothing of tantra. Thus the admonition in Vajrayana to choose one's lama carefully.Rakz wrote: You would rather follow what your teacher says even if what he/she says is completely false and contradicts what the Buddha actually said in the scriptures? That's mind boggling. I wouldn't trust any teacher who would say something like that no matter how "traditional" they appear to be. What's wrong is wrong.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
So this is my question.Malcolm wrote:The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.
When a Arhat dies, you are saying that the Arhat rises from the clear light into the three and so forth. How does this happen without karma?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
The way I've heard it put it that they are "aroused from their sleep by the blessings of bodhisattvas and buddhas" so that they can enter the Mahayana. I can't source it though.
This is not the Shravaka's perspective which I believe is cessation, unpopular though that idea is today.
This is not the Shravaka's perspective which I believe is cessation, unpopular though that idea is today.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Throwing some speculation here:Konchog1 wrote:So this is my question.Malcolm wrote:The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.
When a Arhat dies, you are saying that the Arhat rises from the clear light into the three and so forth. How does this happen without karma?
Could this be driven not by karma, but by a subtle grasping under the influence of subtle cognitive afflictions ?
- Tsongkhapafan
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
Wrong according to who? What my Teacher said was not false as evidenced by Buton Rinchen Drub.Rakz wrote:You would rather follow what your teacher says even if what he/she says is completely false and contradicts what the Buddha actually said in the scriptures? That's mind boggling. I wouldn't trust any teacher who would say something like that no matter how "traditional" they appear to be. What's wrong is wrong.kirtu wrote:This is not very good advice, at least not as written.Rakz wrote: TKF you are very mistaken on this. Read the actual suttas where the Buddha talks about arahats rather than going by what your teacher says. That's the best advice I can give you.
If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.
If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.
In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands"). The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.
Kirt
Having said that, we can't just rely on literal translations of scriptures, we also have to use our intelligence and experience of Dharma, as well as our Teacher's direct instructions.
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
It's a very loose interpretation and not even a standard view in Tibetan Buddhism as noted above.Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Wrong according to who? What my Teacher said was not false as evidenced by Buton Rinchen Drub.
Having said that, we can't just rely on literal translations of scriptures, we also have to use our intelligence and experience of Dharma, as well as our Teacher's direct instructions.
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation. They then begin on the bodhisattva path, starting at the bottom.Konchog1 wrote:So this is my question.Malcolm wrote:The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.
When a Arhat dies, you are saying that the Arhat rises from the clear light into the three and so forth. How does this happen without karma?
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
It merely means that your teacher repeated something erroneous stated by Buton. Buton is very popular among Gelugpas. Not so popular in Sakya.Tsongkhapafan wrote:Wrong according to who? What my Teacher said was not false as evidenced by Buton Rinchen Drub.Rakz wrote:You would rather follow what your teacher says even if what he/she says is completely false and contradicts what the Buddha actually said in the scriptures? That's mind boggling. I wouldn't trust any teacher who would say something like that no matter how "traditional" they appear to be. What's wrong is wrong.kirtu wrote:
This is not very good advice, at least not as written.
If TKF's teachers are traditional, then this is very bad advice although one could in fact pose questions based on the sutra's, etc.
If one's teachers were ordinary, uneducated non-traditional teachers then one should reconsider that relationship.
In fact oral teaching from my Sakya teacher partially supports TKF's assertion although I would not have put it as he did ("Hinayana Pure Lands"). The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.
Kirt
Having said that, we can't just rely on literal translations of scriptures, we also have to use our intelligence and experience of Dharma, as well as our Teacher's direct instructions.
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
This was translated by Wayne Verrill, not Wilkerson.kirtu wrote:So from Wilkerson's Yogini Eye,...
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: The attainment of the Arhats
I may have misunderstood my Sakya lama's presentation as distinguishing between a samadhi body of cessation and a samadhi body resulting in rebirth in some kind of pure realm is basically a shedra level intellectual feat. I may have inadvertently glossed by teacher's intended meaning.Malcolm wrote:No, this is not a standard Sakya view.kirtu wrote:The standard Sakya view is that Arhats are indeed reborn in some kind of Pure Realm where they are intoxicated by samadhi.
Kirt
The standard Sakya view is that arhats are not reborn anywhere. They remain in a samadhi of cessation (the samadhi body), similar to formless realm beings. They are indeed revived from this samadhi of cessation to continue on the bodhisattva path, starting from the beginning on the path of accumulation.
This, however, I am surprised about.Buton's views on this and that are not main stream Sakya.
The quote I provided was also taken from a text by Sonam Tsemo although the Buton quote is from commentary added to the text.
In another comment Loppon Malcolm notes Buton is more popular amongst the Gelug than the Sakya (another surprise, at least for me). Nonetheless it highlights a difference, albeit a hair splitting one to be sure, between TB schools. Perhaps Tsongkhapa felt that Buton's view on this was more accurate? Whatever the case, no one (no TB that I am aware of) doubts that eventually Arhats will be aroused from their samadhi by a Buddha and will then continue on their way to full enlightenment.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche