Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Here we can publicise upcoming dharma events (talks, retreats, webcasts, etc).
GrapeLover
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Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by GrapeLover »

Registration is not yet open, but here is the page:

https://dzokden.org/events/online-kalac ... powerment/
Punya
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Punya »

Anyone who is considering taking an online empowerment should first consider the implications.

It is best to have a good understanding of what empowerment is about, have thoroughly investigated the teacher and have a real connection to them. It's also worth considering the pros and cons of online empowerment. There are many DW threads that discuss these topics.

In the case of this tradition, and this teacher in particular, there is quite limited information online. I suggest contacting Michael Sheehy, who is a respected Jonang scholar before proceeding.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
GrapeLover
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by GrapeLover »

Punya wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:06 pm Anyone who is considering taking an online empowerment should first consider the implications.

It is best to have a good understanding of what empowerment is about, have thoroughly investigated the teacher and have a real connection to them. It's also worth considering the pros and cons of online empowerment. There are many DW threads that discuss these topics.

In the case of this tradition, and this teacher in particular, there is quite limited information online. I suggest contacting Michael Sheehy, who is a respected Jonang scholar before proceeding.
If you feel that his input would be valuable, it might be most straightforward for you to seek it out and share it so that he isn’t being contacted by each prospective attendee.

It seems he is the executive director of the Jonang Foundation, which lists Khentrul Rinpoche’s centre in its directory, so it seems unlikely he’d warn people off: http://www.jonangfoundation.org/directory
Punya
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Punya »

GrapeLover wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:10 pm ... so it seems unlikely he’d warn people off
That may or may not be the case. But you're right, Michael may not be the best source of information.

All I'm saying is that empowerments should not be taken lightly and all the usual precautions should be applied by interested individuals. Much safer to take empowerments from well-known international teachers (whose credentials are much easier to check) or teachers you know personally (but even then proper checking is still wise).
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I kinda agree with Punya. I do not want to turn people away from this great oportunity, however it seems that Khentrul lama is quite traditional in some aspects and would want/expect people who take this empowerment to uphold it and practice afterwards.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
GrapeLover
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by GrapeLover »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:05 am I kinda agree with Punya. I do not want to turn people away from this great oportunity, however it seems that Khentrul lama is quite traditional in some aspects and would want/expect people who take this empowerment to uphold it and practice afterwards.
That’s true. It’s worth mentioning maybe that it says you can take it as a blessing without vows and commitments if you like, and in the schedule there’s a session on “how & why” to take the empowerment and another Q & A session on the vows and commitments before the wang starts.

But definitely I don’t disagree with any of the general points being made regarding empowerments, the motivation & preparation for taking them, etc.
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tobes
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by tobes »

I also recommend exercising due diligence with respect to this event. It has proven very difficult to verify the stated qualifications of the lama.
PeterC
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by PeterC »

tobes wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:20 am I also recommend exercising due diligence with respect to this event. It has proven very difficult to verify the stated qualifications of the lama.
Did anyone ever hear back from Michael Sheehy? A few people on the previous thread said they had contacted him, but nothing was reported back

If it's not convenient to share publicly please PM me - thanks
Natan
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Natan »

I got no response from Sheehy. I have spoken w his students female. They love and respect him. If he had fraudulent Jonang cred after all these years they should have said. So I believe him. I will attend this
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

:good:

If crazywisdom says ok, I would be inclined to agree. Now, where did I put my 100 bucks? :lol:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Natan
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Natan »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:24 am I got no response from Sheehy. I have spoken w his students female. They love and respect him. If he had fraudulent Jonang cred after all these years they should have said. So I believe him. I will attend this
Btw Kalachakranet publishes the announcements of his transmissions. They endorse him.
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tobes
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by tobes »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:18 am
tobes wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:20 am I also recommend exercising due diligence with respect to this event. It has proven very difficult to verify the stated qualifications of the lama.
Did anyone ever hear back from Michael Sheehy? A few people on the previous thread said they had contacted him, but nothing was reported back

If it's not convenient to share publicly please PM me - thanks
I have PM'd you. But more broadly for the thread: if you don't know the lama and you just want the practice, this is not a good reason to take a HYT empowerment. You should study with him for a considerable time before committing. Then you can decide for yourself.
PeterC
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by PeterC »

tobes wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:53 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:18 am
tobes wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:20 am I also recommend exercising due diligence with respect to this event. It has proven very difficult to verify the stated qualifications of the lama.
Did anyone ever hear back from Michael Sheehy? A few people on the previous thread said they had contacted him, but nothing was reported back

If it's not convenient to share publicly please PM me - thanks
I have PM'd you. But more broadly for the thread: if you don't know the lama and you just want the practice, this is not a good reason to take a HYT empowerment. You should study with him for a considerable time before committing. Then you can decide for yourself.
Thank you. Yes this is good advice that I almost always follow, and in this case won't be receiving this empowerment.
Natan
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Natan »

tobes wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:53 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:18 am
tobes wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:20 am I also recommend exercising due diligence with respect to this event. It has proven very difficult to verify the stated qualifications of the lama.
Did anyone ever hear back from Michael Sheehy? A few people on the previous thread said they had contacted him, but nothing was reported back

If it's not convenient to share publicly please PM me - thanks
I have PM'd you. But more broadly for the thread: if you don't know the lama and you just want the practice, this is not a good reason to take a HYT empowerment. You should study with him for a considerable time before committing. Then you can decide for yourself.
Which no one does when taking HHDL initiations. We go by reputatiion also
Natan
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Natan »

One thing to keep in mind with Kalachakra is there are two empowerments. There is the outer empowerment and the secret empowerment. No way he can give the secret empowerment online. You are not really getting all the samayas. This is just for preliminaries and deity yoga. He is a Jonangpa. And he teaches in a traditional way. If one likes KT and wants to get into Jonang, this is a valid entry and if one wants to get into serious yoga with a higher lama go travel and do it at the monastery.
Malcolm
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm One thing to keep in mind with Kalachakra is there are two empowerments. There is the outer empowerment and the secret empowerment. No way he can give the secret empowerment online.
Why not? HHDL did so in Washington DC when he gave Kalacakra there the last ime. He gave the whole kit and kaboodle, and it was streamed live, all of it. Seem to me to be the lama's choice.
Natan
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm One thing to keep in mind with Kalachakra is there are two empowerments. There is the outer empowerment and the secret empowerment. No way he can give the secret empowerment online.
Why not? HHDL did so in Washington DC when he gave Kalacakra there the last ime. He gave the whole kit and kaboodle, and it was streamed live, all of it. Seem to me to be the lama's choice.
Good point. Maybe he will. This is a good deal if you ask me.
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tobes
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by tobes »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:16 pm
tobes wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:53 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:18 am

Did anyone ever hear back from Michael Sheehy? A few people on the previous thread said they had contacted him, but nothing was reported back

If it's not convenient to share publicly please PM me - thanks
I have PM'd you. But more broadly for the thread: if you don't know the lama and you just want the practice, this is not a good reason to take a HYT empowerment. You should study with him for a considerable time before committing. Then you can decide for yourself.
Which no one does when taking HHDL initiations. We go by reputatiion also
Well, if we're going to go by reputation, we'd better find some good evidence. There is rather a lot of this for HHDL, wouldn't you agree?
Natan
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Natan »

tobes wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:06 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:16 pm
tobes wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:53 am

I have PM'd you. But more broadly for the thread: if you don't know the lama and you just want the practice, this is not a good reason to take a HYT empowerment. You should study with him for a considerable time before committing. Then you can decide for yourself.
Which no one does when taking HHDL initiations. We go by reputatiion also
Well, if we're going to go by reputation, we'd better find some good evidence. There is rather a lot of this for HHDL, wouldn't you agree?
Agree . I have been monitoring this guy for a whiile, since I skipped the Califormia iniitiation a few years ago. I have conversed w his disciples.
One from my hometown, SF. And Kalachakranet endorses him. Only Jonang out there. He is traditional. He has good books. Good enough.
Charlie123
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Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27

Post by Charlie123 »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:25 am
tobes wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:06 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:16 pm

Which no one does when taking HHDL initiations. We go by reputatiion also
Well, if we're going to go by reputation, we'd better find some good evidence. There is rather a lot of this for HHDL, wouldn't you agree?
Agree . I have been monitoring this guy for a whiile, since I skipped the Califormia iniitiation a few years ago. I have conversed w his disciples.
One from my hometown, SF. And Kalachakranet endorses him. Only Jonang out there. He is traditional. He has good books. Good enough.
Did you ask his disciples about the rumors that tobes had mentioned in the previous thread? How did they respond?
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