What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

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DewachenVagabond
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:34 pm
SonamTashi wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:04 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:15 am Here is the other Mandala. To me it makes me think of time when when I look at it. I wish I had a better version of it I could download.

Image
Why are you meditating on and pinning mandalas you have no connection to? Even if they were real mandalas, if you have not entered that mandala, I'm not sure your efforts will bear any good fruit.
Well it’s not a picture without meaning, someone took a long time to make it so I think that whatever they were going for was probably important to them. I wouldn’t dissuade someone from continuing to paint Mandalas and I think it’s important for them to do that. Sometimes I try to figure that out. But I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your kindness and approach.

Can someone point me to a resource where I can learn more about Mandalas? That I think would be useful for me.

:namaste:
I'm certainly not saying whoever painted it shouldn't have painted it. What threw me off was your mentioning of meditating on it before you knew what it was. It seems like putting the cart before the horse, even if it is well intentioned. It looks like Johnny has linked a resource for you, and I think it would be a good read for you if you're interested in this kind of thing.
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Budai
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Budai »

Well, I understand the purpose of Meditation is actually to achieve Enlightenment. The Highest Meditation being the Meditation on the Buddha. But everyone and everything has Buddha-Nature (All phenomena from the very first have of themselves constantly borne the marks of tranquil extinction -The Lotus Sutra), so I think if we Meditate on the Buddha-Nature of everything, we can help it in a connection towards Buddhahood. Although I understand these are not obvious traditional Mandalas, I still feel like I have to respect them. I think those that made them were Buddhist, and that they were made for a Buddhist purpose. But I respect the Traditional Way Mandalas are made and their purpose, and I would Love to enter into that Tradition myself, as I have always Loved art, and I think Mandalas are on a Higher Level.

Yes, and I understand that these two I picked may seem completely random, but I felt some connection to them. It’s not shallow to me. But I am not doing some clear Advanced Traditional practice with them either, from which I would most benefit, so you are right to give me a lesson on that. That was in fact what I was looking for, some more information on how I should approach Mandalas.

That article was a great read. I have watched Buddhist monks make Mandalas on YouTube videos. Where are some resources where I can study Mandalas. Is it a closed practice? Does one always need an initiation to Mandala images? These things I am interested in because I want great Mandalas to be a part of my life.

Thank you.

:bow:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SonamTashi wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:44 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:14 pm
SonamTashi wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:05 pm If you're just making stuff up on the fly instead of following the instructions of a guru, you're going to have a bad time.
One of my teachers has run short informal classes at retreats simply explaining detailed symbolism found in thangkas, mandalas, and Tantric art generally. I don't think he expects that everyone is going to be practicing with them, there is some benefit in people simply understanding what they are looking at, even outside of a practice context. Similarly, as one example there is a print of a Kalachakra mandala which has been posterized and used as decor all over the place for years. It's better the people doing so at least understand the context of what they are looking at. I'm also not sure I would call having something on your wall and using it as a recollection or contemplation of sorts a "practice" in the Tantric context at all, as they are not initiated, are not actually visualizing the mandala etc. We can nitpick about whether this is proper, but it's a foregone conclusion because but the art is everywhere now. Better it be a cause for something good (i.e. understanding basic symbolism, understand the concept of mandala itself, which is multilayered to say the least) than for tsk-tsking.

I'm glad someone mentioned these are fake though, because I thought that was schlubby lookin' HUM and mandala generally but didn't want to say anything :D

Anyway, I would encourage Konchok Chodrak to do some reading on Mandalas generally, and how they function in Tantra, I'll bet that if you poke around Garchen Institute's stuff they may have something educational on the subject.
I think it's fine to learn about the symbolism, but I guess I just don't understand why one would meditate on or pin a mandala when they don't even what it is or what tradition or practice it belongs to, especially when you've already made a connection with a guru like Garchen Rinpoche like Könchok has. It's one thing to see a mandala and feel a connection and a motivation to learn about it and seek out the related practice and empowerments etc.

Maybe that's what Könchok is doing. I think it just threw me off that they said they were meditating on an unknown mandala.
It sounded like it was just being used as a reminder of impermanence or something, but the above stuff is exactly why I said, among other things, that it might be good to contact Garchen Institute, etc. I agree that practitioners should learn about all this stuff in detail, preferably from teachers, but there is alot to learn and people must start somewhere, sometimes they simply start from a place of liking certain artwork.

Again for the sake of the OP, here is a link to what a Mandala is:

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... -a-mandala
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Budai »

Yes, thank you very much Johnny, I read it the first time you posted, and actually got some strong impressions from the Mandalas there. This is a wonderful practice that I would Love to participate in. I hope I can get in contact with the Garchen Institute about doing some Mandala Practice, as I am very interested in this. Thank you very much. :anjali:
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

You should ask for a lung for whatever Ngondro they teach and practice it, or ask a Garchen Institute person about mandala offering in particular, HYT practices etc.. While I get your feeling of initial connection, it doesn't mean much if it doesn't turn into anything, including some kind of effort on the part of the student...it's like infatuation that never goes anywhere.

Basically, if you want to actually understand or do practices that involve mandala generation in a Tantric sense as mentioned in the article, you need to not only have empowerment, but really you need practice instructions, and need to understand what you are doing. Otherwise it's a nice inspiring piece of art that helps you focus thoughts, etc..which is fine and I think positive, but is not the same thing as the other practices.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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conebeckham
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by conebeckham »

The sand mandala is a support. It is constructed strictly, ritually, gradually, as a symbol of the “floor plan” and a sort of architectural map of the palace of the deity and retinue. For example, Kalacakra and consort reside in the center of the Kalacakra mandala, and there are dozens of retinue deities surround them in various directions. The mandala is a map of the walls, cornices, mantles, rain spouts and gutters, as well as a wide variety of decorative architectural features.

Each facet is symbolic of an aspect of one’s own enlightened body, speech and mind. Normally, the mandala is constructed, and the deity is invited to reside there. Offerings and prayers are made, and there are elaborate visualizations involving oneself as deity and the deity and mandala in front. At the end of the ritual, the colored powders are swept up and usually ritually deposited somewhere like a stream or ocean where they are said to bless the environment.

Prior to engaging in this sort of elaborate ritual, it is expected that each practitioner complete the lengthy “approach” practices involving that deity, and normally the outer ritual implements and supports are much less elaborate. After months or years, and hundreds of thousands of mantra recitations, and a lot of visualization practice and ritual blessings, it’s common the complete the practice with this sort of Accomplishment” ceremony, though those with sand mandalas are the most elaborate versions of accomplishment rituals.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Budai
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Budai »

Okay. Thank you so much for the information. I have contacted the Garchen Institute, and hopefully I can get some information on the type of practice that is most suitable for me. It is certainly a powerful authentic Buddhist practice that I would be honored to fully take part in. Thank you for your kind contributions.
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conebeckham
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by conebeckham »

You bet! Hope you can actualize your wish to practice the Two Stages, and bring yidam practice to fruition. May we all recognize the spontaneously arisen mandala of wisdom and appearance inseparable.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by jmlee369 »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:34 pm Well it’s not a picture without meaning, someone took a long time to make it so I think that whatever they were going for was probably important to them. I wouldn’t dissuade someone from continuing to paint Mandalas and I think it’s important for them to do that. Sometimes I try to figure that out. But I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your kindness and approach.

Can someone point me to a resource where I can learn more about Mandalas? That I think would be useful for me.

:namaste:
Someone took the time and effort to make it, sure, and although I cannot read the maker's mind, I'm pretty sure the purpose and importance of that work was the profit it would make, not anything spiritual. Thangkas painters are supposed to be practitioners of the deity themselves, and such artists would take care to produce works that accord with tradition, but most tourist thangkas painters are not. The problem with this kind of trade is that it spreads a lot of mistaken understandings of the dharma. For example, in this video from a popular Youtuber you can hear the Bhutanese shop assistant explain the four doorways of the (what I am 90% certain is a tourist thangka) mandala as being the "four doorways to heaven" which is rather unfortunate. This paper by Yael Bentor (a scholar whose work is has been of great benefit to practitioners, especially for Gelugpas) is quite good for understanding what the market is like. To quote the most relevant part:
the explanations heard from retailers represented the mandala as depicting exclusively the way to paradise. Retailers often asserted that the lower part of the painting represents hell, the upper part paradise. Bad actions lead around the mandala to hell, while good actions allow one to enter the mandala, leading to heaven above. Yet, according to the Tibetan tradition, the mandala symbolism is centripetal rather than vertical. Retailers said that “angels” or “good people” control the upper direction, gods the left, goddesses the right, and bad people the lower direction. Such distinctions have no place in traditional mandala symbolism.
More generally, profiting from the sale of Buddha images, dharma texts, and stupas is said to have extremely grave consequences, and the open trade in tantric images especially, including mandalas, could be seen as a sign of degeneration of the dharma.
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Budai
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Budai »

I think the effort put into making something like that isn’t really for the profit, but that’s just what I think. Thank you for the detailed post and I will keep it in mind. Om.

:anjali:

Om Mani Padme Hum,
Giovanni
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Re: What does the Tibetan Symbol in the center of this Mandala mean?

Post by Giovanni »

Of course tourist thanka are for profit. There is no other motivation for them. It is good that they give a small income for refugees. But those people could be encouraged to use their skills to produce decorative and secular work without HYT implication.
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