"Do not befriend the foolish"

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kirtu
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"Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by kirtu »

From Hacket, "A Tibetan Verb Lexicon": བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས། །དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གསུངས།: All the Tathagatas have said "Do not befriend the foolish".

Why does Hacket insert "have" to change གསུངས། to the perfect past? Is there actually a perfect past in Tibetan as opposed to just a past tense (perfect past being things that are actually completed and often a while ago)?

How does this get parsed out: བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས།:

བྱིས་པ: foolish beings
འགའ་ཡང: at all, whatsoever
བཤེས: friend
མིན: not
ཞེས།: particle indicating quote

"Do not become friends at all with foolish beings" - ? Is བཤེས actually a verb? Otherwise what is the logic behind this construction?

Also how is བྱིས་པ pronounced? be pa (bay pa) ?

Thanks!

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by Malcolm »

གསུངས་is both the imperative as well as the past. Tibetan does not have a "perfect past" It has only three conjugations of verbs, past/future; present/infinitive and imperative. Often the imperative is morphologically the same as the past tense.

So this line could the read both ways i.e. as a command or as past tense.

Generally, for bshes pa to be a verb, it usually requires the auxillary "byed pa". Here the auxiliary [bya/byed] is elided, but implied.

It could also be translated completely nominally: "Do not be a friend to immature [person] at all", etc.

Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"



kirtu wrote:From Hacket, "A Tibetan Verb Lexicon": བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས། །དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གསུངས།: All the Tathagatas have said "Do not befriend the foolish".

Why does Hacket insert "have" to change གསུངས། to the perfect past? Is there actually a perfect past in Tibetan as opposed to just a past tense (perfect past being things that are actually completed and often a while ago)?

How does this get parsed out: བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས།:

བྱིས་པ: foolish beings
འགའ་ཡང: at all, whatsoever
བཤེས: friend
མིན: not
ཞེས།: particle indicating quote

"Do not become friends at all with foolish beings" - ? Is བཤེས actually a verb? Otherwise what is the logic behind this construction?

Also how is བྱིས་པ pronounced? be pa (bay pa) ?

Thanks!

Kirt
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dzogchungpa
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dzogchungpa »

Definitely good advice, however you translate it.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Lindama
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by Lindama »

what is the context of this... could it also be talking about our own foolish parts? are we above it... and, what about family. Perhaps it is saying do not subscribe to foolishness in others.

old zen master talking to himself:
master, master... are you awake?
yes! yes!
don't be fooled by others
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho
Malcolm
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by Malcolm »

Lindama wrote:what is the context of this... could it also be talking about our own foolish parts? are we above it... and, what about family. Perhaps it is saying do not subscribe to foolishness in others.

old zen master talking to himself:
master, master... are you awake?
yes! yes!
don't be fooled by others

It is from the Bodhicarya-avatara. It means do not be familiar with immature people.
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reddust
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by reddust »

Immature emotionally or spiritually?
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dharmagoat
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dharmagoat »

reddust wrote:Immature emotionally or spiritually?
Both. I think the two are inseparable.

Although I don't think it necessarily involves avoiding children in this case.
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by reddust »

dharmagoat wrote:
reddust wrote:Immature emotionally or spiritually?
Both. I think the two are inseparable.

Although I don't think it necessarily involves avoiding children in this case.
I was thinking that, as well as young adults, or people who have been through trauma. I was thinking more like the fools that enjoy and manifest behavior that causes suffering for themselves and others :namaste:

Edit I have never enjoyed it when my behavior hurts me or others. I think most folk are like that, heck I feel bad when I win at cards or if I lose... :thinking:
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dharmagoat
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dharmagoat »

I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging around with twits."
Last edited by dharmagoat on Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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reddust
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by reddust »

dharmagoat wrote:I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging out with twits".
But I am a twit hahaha :twothumbsup: you are so funny. My best friends brother used to call me a twit. I looked up the meaning: To taunt, ridicule, or tease, especially for embarrassing mistakes or faults. See Synonyms at ridicule.
n.
1. The act or an instance of twitting.
2. A reproach, gibe, or taunt.
3. Slang A foolishly annoying person

I guess I can be a twit sometimes, there are a lot of twits online.
Last edited by reddust on Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dharmagoat
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dharmagoat »

reddust wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging out with twits".
But I am a twit hahaha :twothumbsup: you are so funny
We are all twits here to some degree.

We are conversing on an internet forum, after all. :tongue:
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reddust
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by reddust »

dharmagoat wrote:
reddust wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I think it really means "Don't waste your time hanging out with twits".
But I am a twit hahaha :twothumbsup: you are so funny
We are all twits here to some degree.

We are conversing on an internet forum, after all. :tongue:
I know, I just added a definition for twit to my last post. So many words are vague, many times I look them up even if I think I know what they mean. I seriously think we all can fall into this many times during the day.
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kirtu
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote: Generally, for bshes pa to be a verb, it usually requires the auxillary "byed pa". Here the auxiliary [bya/byed] is elided, but implied.
How is it implied?
It could also be translated completely nominally: "Do not be a friend to immature [person] at all", etc.
How do you determine whether to translate it nominally or translate it with བྱིས་པ་ as a verb?

Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"
But in the context of the sentence would it be "chi wa"?

So the whole sentence would be pronounced: བྱིས་པ་འགའ་ཡང་བཤེས་མིན་ཞེས། །དེ་བཞིན་གཤེགས་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གསུངས chi wa ga yang she min shi de zhin sheg pa nam gyi?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Sherab
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by Sherab »

Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"
In Kham it would be shi pa.
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dharmagoat
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dharmagoat »

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"
In Kham it would be shi pa.
According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.
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dharmagoat
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dharmagoat »

dharmagoat wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"
In Kham it would be shi pa.
According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.
For the record, the pronunciations I have given should actually be [ʨʰìwa] and [ʨʰìpa]. An important distinction.
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kirtu
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by kirtu »

dharmagoat wrote: For the record, the pronunciations I have given should actually be [ʨʰìwa] and [ʨʰìpa]. An important distinction.
The question then becomes how do we get from IPA notation to sounds coming out of our lips?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Pero
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by Pero »

dharmagoat wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Depending on dialect, བྱིས་པ is pronounced something like "ji/chi pa"; but in Amdo, it would be "Yay pa"
In Kham it would be shi pa.
According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.
There's an audio tape? Did you have to order it separately or was it supposed to come with the book?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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dharmagoat
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by dharmagoat »

Pero wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:According to the audio tape that comes with Translating Buddhism from Tibetan, བྱིས་པ is pronounced (in the Lhasa dialect) as [cʰìwa] on three occasions, and as [cʰìpa] (the expected pronunciation) on two.
There's an audio tape? Did you have to order it separately or was it supposed to come with the book?
It can be bought separately: http://www.tibetanlanguage.org/bookstor ... gbooks.htm
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Re: "Do not befriend the foolish"

Post by In the bone yard »

One problem is the dictionary we use to translate words.
Different dictionaries will have different words for a tibetan word.
Maybe a word that defines the meaning was not chosen properly.
We translate meaning, not words!

So what happens when a translator attempts to translate tantra when he doesn't have the realization (meaning) of what he's translating?
How is he or she supposed to translate the meaning?

Regardless of whether or not the passage is tantra or not, using the word 'friend' in the translation might not be a good word.
Maybe 'associate' is better.

"Do not associate with foolish beings."

The reason I say this is because the definition of the word 'friend' implies mutual trust between two or more people. Trust is built over a period of time.
But the words 'at all, whatsoever' are used to translate this passage.
This tells me 'associate' is a better word than friend. The definition of 'associate' is a better fit.

I'm not saying I have the correct translation, I'm trying to prove the point that we are translating the meaning, not the words.
The use of different words can have a totally different meaning. This goes all the way back to translations of the Bible!

We could be following teachings with the wrong meaning. So this is a big problem we have today, especially when it comes to tantra translations.
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