Difference between Padme and Padma

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ananda
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Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by ananda »

What is the difference between the meaning of Padme like in "Om Mani Padme Hum" and the meaning of Padma like in "Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hum"?
"Suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy. Regard both suffering and joy as facts of life, and continue chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo. no matter what happens. How could this be anything other than the boundless joy of the Law? Strengthen your power of faith more than ever." - Nichiren Daishonin
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Aemilius
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by Aemilius »

Padme is vocative.
A sanskrit dictionary that is easy to use http://www.sanskritdictionary.com
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
ananda
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by ananda »

@Aemilius Thank you for clarifying! :smile:
"Suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy. Regard both suffering and joy as facts of life, and continue chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo. no matter what happens. How could this be anything other than the boundless joy of the Law? Strengthen your power of faith more than ever." - Nichiren Daishonin
penalvad_uba
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by penalvad_uba »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:06 am Padme is vocative.
A sanskrit dictionary that is easy to use http://www.sanskritdictionary.com
Hi, could you explain the Padme as vocative ? At first i concluded that is tlyou call Mani and Padme, so you are calling Mani Lotus ?
Also, the two mantras are explained with very diverse meaning one for Pema Sambaua other for Chenrezig, but Pema means Lotus Family, does Padme means the same but in relation to Mani ? (Because of vocative use maybe)

Anyway, the pronounce is very different, even when chanted by Tibetan realized master, they chant Padme (could be Peme).

Loved the question by the.way.
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Aemilius
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by Aemilius »

penalvad_uba wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:42 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:06 am Padme is vocative.
A sanskrit dictionary that is easy to use http://www.sanskritdictionary.com
Hi, could you explain the Padme as vocative ? At first i concluded that is tlyou call Mani and Padme, so you are calling Mani Lotus ?
Also, the two mantras are explained with very diverse meaning one for Pema Sambaua other for Chenrezig, but Pema means Lotus Family, does Padme means the same but in relation to Mani ? (Because of vocative use maybe)

Anyway, the pronounce is very different, even when chanted by Tibetan realized master, they chant Padme (could be Peme).

Loved the question by the.way.
Equanimity
Benoytosh Bhattacharyya explains in his Indian Buddhist Iconography that the secret name or mantra name of this form of Lokeshvara (i.e. Avalokiteshvara) is Manipadme. Thus you are calling Manipadme (Lokeshvara).This form is also called Sadakshari Lokeshvara, i.e. Lokeshvara of the Six Syllables. There are several tens of different forms of Lokeshvara in his book, the book is mainly based on the sanskrit texts of Nishpanna yogavali and Sadhanamala or A Garland of Sadhanas.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
penalvad_uba
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by penalvad_uba »

So, Chenrezig and Lokestevara are the same, but they have diverse secret names, is that yoy are telling ? They both are the bodhisattva that appears in the Heart Sutta, but for the other forms one has to look into Lokestevara instead of Chenrezig ?
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Aemilius
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by Aemilius »

penalvad_uba wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:01 am So, Chenrezig and Lokestevara are the same, but they have diverse secret names, is that yoy are telling ? They both are the bodhisattva that appears in the Heart Sutta, but for the other forms one has to look into Lokestevara instead of Chenrezig ?
Not exactly so, Chenrezig is a tibetan transalation of the sanskrit name Avalokitesvara. There is a tibetan word also for Lokeshvara, which I can't remember now, it occurs in the Amitabha sadhana that is commonly used in Kagyu practice. Lokeshvara means Lord of the World, Loka+Ishvara=> Lokeshvara. It is just another name. There is a text that is called 108 names of Avalokitesvara:

"Two Texts: Sadhanamala & the One Hundred and Eight Forms of Avalokiteshvara:
The Sadhanamala (edited text) of Benoytosh Bhattacharyya (1925), which relied heavily on Nepalese manuscripts, does not mention a sadhana for a Padmapani Lokeshvara. However, in Nepal we do have the descriptions of the One Hundred and Eight Forms of Avalokiteshvara based on the Machhandar Vahal, Kathmandu, Nepal. Description number #104 names a Padmapani Lokeshvara with one face and two hands in a standing posture. The right hand is in a gesture of generosity and the left holds the stem of a lotus. See reference and excerpt below. The names of the 108 are likely extracted from the text in the Tantra section of the Kagyur titled the 108 Names of Avalokiteshvara. There are other similar texts such as the 108 Names of Manjushri, etc.

108 FORMS OF AVALOKITESVARA
Excerpt from Benoytosh Bhattacharyya, THE INDIAN BUDDHIST ICONOGRAPHY, 1958

#73. Pindapatra Lokesvara. He is one-faced and two-armed and stands on a lotus. He holds the Pindapatra (the bowl) in his two hands near the navel.

#104. Padmapani Lokesvara. He also is similar in form to No. 73, with the difference that here the god displays the Varada pose with his right hand and holds the stem of a lotus in his left.

The Sadhanamala Sanskrit text does mention six included texts related to Khasarpana Lokeshvara. In Western Art History publications Khasarpana is frequently identified in the many art catalogues as Padmapani for both standing and seated figures. No reason or distinction is mentioned in those publications to make clear the differences between the two names or forms of Lokeshvara. It is also interesting to note that in the study of Modern Art History the term Padmapani is almost exclusively used with reference to sculpture, both seated and standing, and not used for paintings. With the figures of Lokeshvara in paintings it is certainly easier to identify the specific form and textual source especially with examples post first millennium.

Drub Thab Gyatso translated text of Lotsawa Dragpa Gyaltsen a solitary entry titled 'Padmapani Dharani' gives a long dharani with a short colophon saying that if recited three or five times then even a donkey can learn hundreds of shlokas of text. This recitation practice clearly suggests that it is for learning and memorizing Sanskrit Buddhist texts which is not a typical function or pursuit in the practice of Lokeshvara. This text is not found in the Bhattacharya edited Sanskrit version of the Sadhanamala."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
penalvad_uba
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by penalvad_uba »

Cool, apart from naming an enlighted as a "god".
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Zhen Li
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by Zhen Li »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:50 am Drub Thab Gyatso translated text of Lotsawa Dragpa Gyaltsen a solitary entry titled 'Padmapani Dharani' gives a long dharani with a short colophon saying that if recited three or five times then even a donkey can learn hundreds of shlokas of text. This recitation practice clearly suggests that it is for learning and memorizing Sanskrit Buddhist texts which is not a typical function or pursuit in the practice of Lokeshvara. This text is not found in the Bhattacharya edited Sanskrit version of the Sadhanamala."
This is interesting, since this similar to the results given for the Prajñāpāramitā sādhanas in the Sādhanamālā. Namely, that one can memorise scriptures and so forth.
Aemilius wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:06 am Padme is vocative.
A sanskrit dictionary that is easy to use http://www.sanskritdictionary.com
That is if it is feminine. The more obvious reading is that it is locative. The theory that it is feminine is connected to the idea that it may be referring to goddess who was conflated with Lokeśvāra, his consort, or that Lokeśvāra is in female form. There is no definitive interpretation and various articles are written in favour of either interpretation.

Going back to the original question, the difference with padma in the Vajragūru mantra is that it is clear that "padma" is vocative, whereas padme could be feminine vocative or masculine/neuter locative. So to perhaps help OP understand this, if it is vocative, it is like saying "O Lotus one" or "O Lotus-like one:" it is calling. If maṇipadme is vocative it could be understood as "O Jewel-Lotus." If it is locative, it would be "in the jewel-lotus."

It probably depends on the tradition, but it is not necessary, in my understanding, for a mantra to be understood in order to be effective. Many mantras use Prakrit words which cannot be made sense of in Sanskrit.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:50 am
penalvad_uba wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:01 am So, Chenrezig and Lokestevara are the same, but they have diverse secret names, is that yoy are telling ? They both are the bodhisattva that appears in the Heart Sutta, but for the other forms one has to look into Lokestevara instead of Chenrezig ?
Not exactly so, Chenrezig is a tibetan transalation of the sanskrit name Avalokitesvara. There is a tibetan word also for Lokeshvara, which I can't remember now, it occurs in the Amitabha sadhana that is commonly used in Kagyu practice. Lokeshvara means Lord of the World, Loka+Ishvara=> Lokeshvara. It is just another name. There is a text that is called 108 names of Avalokitesvara:
One of the names for Chenrezig is Jigten Sumgon, protector (lord) of the three worlds (ie. all of existence).
Perhaps in Sanskrit it would be trilokeshvara?

Jigten Sumgon was also the name of the founder of the Drikung Kagyu.

I think perhaps Lokeshvara is a title offered to Avalokiteshvara out of veneration. At the beginning of the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva, Gyalse Ngulchu Thokme’s very first words are “Namo Lokeshvaraya!” Homage to the Lord of the World!
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Aemilius
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by Aemilius »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 6:09 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:50 am
penalvad_uba wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:01 am So, Chenrezig and Lokestevara are the same, but they have diverse secret names, is that yoy are telling ? They both are the bodhisattva that appears in the Heart Sutta, but for the other forms one has to look into Lokestevara instead of Chenrezig ?
Not exactly so, Chenrezig is a tibetan transalation of the sanskrit name Avalokitesvara. There is a tibetan word also for Lokeshvara, which I can't remember now, it occurs in the Amitabha sadhana that is commonly used in Kagyu practice. Lokeshvara means Lord of the World, Loka+Ishvara=> Lokeshvara. It is just another name. There is a text that is called 108 names of Avalokitesvara:
One of the names for Chenrezig is Jigten Sumgon, protector (lord) of the three worlds (ie. all of existence).
Perhaps in Sanskrit it would be trilokeshvara?

Jigten Sumgon was also the name of the founder of the Drikung Kagyu.

I think perhaps Lokeshvara is a title offered to Avalokiteshvara out of veneration. At the beginning of the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva, Gyalse Ngulchu Thokme’s very first words are “Namo Lokeshvaraya!” Homage to the Lord of the World!
There is a deity called Trailokya vijaya:

"Trailokyavijaya (a Vidyarajas) (Chinese: Chiang san shih; Japanese: Gozanze, Conqueror of the Threefold World
降三世明王 (Skt Trailokyavijaya; Jpn Gosanze-myo’o)
The wisdom king Conqueror of the Threefold World.
One of the five great wisdom kings.
The wisdom kings are a group of deities revered in Esoteric Buddhism as the conqueror of all obstacles.
The other four of the five great wisdom kings are:

Immovable,
Kundali,
Great Awesome Virtue, and
Diamond Yaksha.

Conqueror of the Threefold World is regarded as either a conqueror of the three poisons of greed, anger, and foolishness, or as a conqueror of the god Maheshvara, the lord of the threefold world. See also five great wisdom kings."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:59 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 6:09 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:50 am

Not exactly so, Chenrezig is a tibetan transalation of the sanskrit name Avalokitesvara. There is a tibetan word also for Lokeshvara, which I can't remember now, it occurs in the Amitabha sadhana that is commonly used in Kagyu practice. Lokeshvara means Lord of the World, Loka+Ishvara=> Lokeshvara. It is just another name. There is a text that is called 108 names of Avalokitesvara:
One of the names for Chenrezig is Jigten Sumgon, protector (lord) of the three worlds (ie. all of existence).
Perhaps in Sanskrit it would be trilokeshvara?

Jigten Sumgon was also the name of the founder of the Drikung Kagyu.

I think perhaps Lokeshvara is a title offered to Avalokiteshvara out of veneration. At the beginning of the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva, Gyalse Ngulchu Thokme’s very first words are “Namo Lokeshvaraya!” Homage to the Lord of the World!
There is a deity called Trailokya vijaya:

"Trailokyavijaya (a Vidyarajas) (Chinese: Chiang san shih; Japanese: Gozanze, Conqueror of the Threefold World
降三世明王 (Skt Trailokyavijaya; Jpn Gosanze-myo’o)
The wisdom king Conqueror of the Threefold World.
One of the five great wisdom kings.
The wisdom kings are a group of deities revered in Esoteric Buddhism as the conqueror of all obstacles.
The other four of the five great wisdom kings are:

Immovable,
Kundali,
Great Awesome Virtue, and
Diamond Yaksha.

Conqueror of the Threefold World is regarded as either a conqueror of the three poisons of greed, anger, and foolishness, or as a conqueror of the god Maheshvara, the lord of the threefold world. See also five great wisdom kings."
:anjali: Great knowledge, thank you.
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Yungdrung Gyalpo
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Re: Difference between Padme and Padma

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

Lokeśvara in Tibetan = Jikten Wangchuk (’jigs rten dbang phyug).
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