How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

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YesheKunzang
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How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by YesheKunzang »

Hi

Khentrul Rinpoche have a teaching on How to become a modern Mahasiddha. The video is about one hour 47 minutes but the actual teaching is only about one hour 15 minutes minus prayers and Q&A.

An interesting teaching where Rinpoche made some comments about Theravada and Tibetan tradition that somewhat shocked me. That (other) Tibetan tradition focuses more on Sutra than Tantra, Tibetan Vinaya is stronger than Theravada, and some other points as to why Jonang Kalachakra Tantra is superior to others, etc.

Maybe I didn't understand him correctly but seemed a bit shocking to hear. Not sure if controversial but certainly eyebrow raising. Wonder if anyone else listened to the teaching?

Here's a link to it:
.https://www.facebook.com/dzokden/video ... 45477065/

Would be interested to hear opinions of more knowledgeable members.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Watching it now, thanks. Will give you my uneducated opinion when I finish.

"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Giovanni
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Giovanni »

I’m not sure which shocked you. Is it the idea that some Buddhist teachers make claims for their tradition over other traditions? This is quite common. Or have I misunderstood? 🙂
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I think it is true the Tibetans are very strict about Vinaya, especially in a traditional monastic setting where they enter as children and may spend a decade or more in rigorous study, followed by a lifetime of monasticism. They start out with a deep study of vinaya and tenet systems before progressing to Vajrayana.

He strikes me as a man of strong opinions levened by humor and a commitment to core Buddhist values. I have a favorable impression of him and enjoyed the vid. thanks for posting it.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Arnoud
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Arnoud »

I guess when Tibetans are gelongs they might be strict but most kids in monasteries aren’t real monks. Which is a good thing I think but for most westerners a little hard to understand the way things work in the monasteries.
Malcolm
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:58 pm I think it is true the Tibetans are very strict about Vinaya…
Not really. Some are, most are pretty lax, from a strict Vinaya POV.
Natan
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Natan »

Tibetans have better continuity of Vinaya lineage. Theravada had some gaps and later renaissance. Not all. Theravada had a rough history.
Malcolm
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:40 pm Tibetans have better continuity of Vinaya lineage. Theravada had some gaps and later renaissance. Not all. Theravada had a rough history.
You have a source for those assertions?

Here is a fairly decent review of the history of Vinaya:

https://thubtenchodron.org/2007/08/argu ... ion-women/

So, not as good as you have asserted.
Natan
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:40 pm Tibetans have better continuity of Vinaya lineage. Theravada had some gaps and later renaissance. Not all. Theravada had a rough history.
You have a source for those assertions?

Here is a fairly decent review of the history of Vinaya:

https://thubtenchodron.org/2007/08/argu ... ion-women/

So, not as good as you have asserted.
It's true Tibetan women have to go to China or Taiwan.
Malcolm
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:40 pm Tibetans have better continuity of Vinaya lineage. Theravada had some gaps and later renaissance. Not all. Theravada had a rough history.
You have a source for those assertions?

Here is a fairly decent review of the history of Vinaya:

https://thubtenchodron.org/2007/08/argu ... ion-women/

So, not as good as you have asserted.
It's true Tibetan women have to go to China or Taiwan.
And Vinaya in Tibet collapsed completely in the 9th century, which is more to the point, and was not restored for over 100 years.
Natan
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:35 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:33 pm

You have a source for those assertions?

Here is a fairly decent review of the history of Vinaya:

https://thubtenchodron.org/2007/08/argu ... ion-women/

So, not as good as you have asserted.
It's true Tibetan women have to go to China or Taiwan.
And Vinaya in Tibet collapsed completely in the 9th century, which is more to the point, and was not restored for over 100 years.
But got restored.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:35 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:33 pm

You have a source for those assertions?

Here is a fairly decent review of the history of Vinaya:

https://thubtenchodron.org/2007/08/argu ... ion-women/

So, not as good as you have asserted.
It's true Tibetan women have to go to China or Taiwan.
And Vinaya in Tibet collapsed completely in the 9th century, which is more to the point, and was not restored for over 100 years.
What do you mean the vinaya "collapsed"? Do you mean the lineage was broken?
Malcolm
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:35 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:52 pm

It's true Tibetan women have to go to China or Taiwan.
And Vinaya in Tibet collapsed completely in the 9th century, which is more to the point, and was not restored for over 100 years.
But got restored.
As was the Theravadin Sangha in Shri Lanka. However, the Theravada Sangha in Burma has enjoyed a continuous presence since at least the 3rd century CE.
Malcolm
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:35 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:52 pm

It's true Tibetan women have to go to China or Taiwan.
And Vinaya in Tibet collapsed completely in the 9th century, which is more to the point, and was not restored for over 100 years.
What do you mean the vinaya "collapsed"? Do you mean the lineage was broken?
The three remaining monks in central Tibet fled Langdarma, and the so-called lower Vinaya was not reintroduced to Tibet until the late 10th century.
Natan
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:18 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:35 pm

And Vinaya in Tibet collapsed completely in the 9th century, which is more to the point, and was not restored for over 100 years.
But got restored.
As was the Theravadin Sangha in Shri Lanka. However, the Theravada Sangha in Burma has enjoyed a continuous presence since at least the 3rd century CE.
Im aware of that. I watched the video. What he said was Tibetans are more precise in the detailed scrutiny of Vinaya, see ordination as a life commitment and don't respect someone who ever disrobes. Whereas in Theravada they don't scrutinize details, and one can disrobe and reordain often and nobody bats an eye.

Then he says the Tibetans emphasizing Vinaya is at the cost of vajrayana practice. He says one gets all these rituals and then ends up spending many years on sutra. He says it's not necessary, bc Kalachakra is the most updated Buddhism and includes everything. If one practices the essence you've got everything covered

Finally, he says there are not many Kalachakra lineage teachers who and teach the whole path.

A lot of what he says makes sense.
Last edited by Natan on Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
Natan
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by Natan »

Also Jonang seem to have the best and possibly only lineage for completion stage on Kalachakra, which he is alluding to.
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AmidaB
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Re: How to become a modern Mahasiddha - some surprising comments

Post by AmidaB »

Does the Kalachakra system and path suitable for working householders?
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