The Serious Curriculum

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
Täpa
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The Serious Curriculum

Post by Täpa »

Malcolm wrote elsewhere:

You may notice that Bonpos do not teach their serious curriculum of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc.


In the book Bonpo Dzogchen teachings there is an overview of the curriculum taught at Triten Norbutse. And indeed, they spend many years on these subjects. Dzogchen are the last two years of the 12-13 year education program. This got me thinking. That is because often it is said dzogchen is the best and fastest way to liberation and complete on it's own. Why would they spend so much time on other philosophies if those are inferior, and do not start immediately with dzogchen? Dzogchen is being taught as the most secret teaching, at this moment in time and space the other Bonpo subjects seem to be the most secret. None of it is available, to my knowledge, for non monastics. Could it be that the other subjects really are the serious parts? More serious than dzogchen? What kind of teachings did teachers offer to lay practitioners throughout the past, if dzogchen was the most secret and the others are only for monastics? Is it a possibility dzogchen is a simplified teaching, with the didactics of it being actually the highest? A small sign confirming this theory is Lopon Rinpoche mentioning in the book Bonpo Dzogchen teachings, by telling one can first attain the rainbow body (jalus) and thereafter start doing tantric practices for creating the illusory body (gyulu).

I would be thankful if someone can tell if i am making things up or if there is a bit of truth in my ideas.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Why would they spend so much time in complex curricula, etc. Frankly, IME a part of the answer to this is “they are Tibetan”. Not trying to stereotype, but there is a cultural backdrop there.

Just like with Vajrayana, there is a huge task for teachers and lineage holders figuring out how to teach this huge and comprehensive collection of stuff to people in another culture, who usually cannot immerse themselves in the same way.
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mutsuk
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by mutsuk »

Malcolm wrote elsewhere:

You may notice that Bonpos do not teach their serious curriculum of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc.
You have to put that into context. What Malcolm meant is that Bönpos do not give these teachings to Westerners. The reason is obvious: the language is too difficult and strictly none of the Bönpos teaching in the West has a level of a foreign language good enough to enable him to teach directly Madhyamaka, etc.

In the book Bonpo Dzogchen teachings there is an overview of the curriculum taught at Triten Norbutse. And indeed, they spend many years on these subjects.
This is for the monks, not for Westerners.
The curriculum of the sgrub-grwa is all Dzogchen-oriented. There is an equivalent of this curriculum given in Shenten Ling but from what I could listen to, except of course for Yongdzin Rinpoche, the other teachers were really not at the level.
Why would they spend so much time on other philosophies if those are inferior, and do not start immediately with dzogchen?
The curriculum structure that you read about is for the Geshe degree. The objective is to become able to teach everything from Sutras to Dzogchen, within this curriculum. In general Geshes are not trained in advanced Dzogchen teachings, mostly only in the Nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod which is the least dzogchen you can find. It’s up to them to deepen their knowledge and experience of what they have not been taught about Dzogchen (Thod-rgal, etc.) after their Geshe degree.
Dzogchen is being taught as the most secret teaching, at this moment in time and space the other Bonpo subjects seem to be the most secret.
No. This is due to the fact that the Tibetan Bönpos in the West cannot give these teachings on Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc., directly in English, or French, or German, or Italian, or any other language, except maybe Chinese for some of them but again I suspect they don't teach philosophical issues of Madhyamaka, etc.
None of it is available, to my knowledge, for non monastics.
This was not, and still is not, and will not be, the objective.
Could it be that the other subjects really are the serious parts?
This is due to language limitations. Why don’t they generally use Western translators? Good question. Go ask them.
More serious than dzogchen?
Nothing is more serious than Dzogchen in Bön. However, since Yongdzin Rinpoche stopped teaching as he used to (like 20 years ago), you will have a lot of difficulties to find someone able to guide you correctly on that Path among those who teach Bön Dzogchen in the West. Most of them have never done the required retreats and in general are not very literate outside their Geshe curriculum (in which Dzogchen is barely covered).
What kind of teachings did teachers offer to lay practitioners throughout the past, if dzogchen was the most secret and the others are only for monastics?
In Tibet or in the West?
Is it a possibility dzogchen is a simplified teaching
Dzogchen is Dzogchen, it is not a simplified teaching.
Täpa
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Täpa »

Thank you Johnny Dangerous and mutsuk for the detailed answer!
The language barrier and cultural differences make sense to me. And now i understand dzogchen is something the geshe can further develop in understanding by his own choice after graduating. I thought the 2 years of training was enough for them, because of having a fundament from all the other subjects.
Maybe it is just a bit like in the West. I have been going to school for about 18 years. When i look back at it, what did i really learn? (Obviously not English as you can see, it is bad at some parts :rolling: )
mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:26 am
What kind of teachings did teachers offer to lay practitioners throughout the past, if dzogchen was the most secret and the others are only for monastics?
In Tibet or in the West?
I meant in Tibet.

Thanks again!
Täpa
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Täpa »

A small sign confirming this theory is Lopon Rinpoche mentioning in the book Bonpo Dzogchen teachings, by telling one can first attain the rainbow body (jalus) and thereafter start doing tantric practices for creating the illusory body (gyulu).

Sorry i cannot find this anymore in the book. Maybe some bad memory.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by SilenceMonkey »

The Buddhists have more or less the same curriculum in their monasteries, where one learns philosophy and mahayana tradition first and tantra later, then perhaps dzogchen at the end (in Nyingma monasteries). Maybe you could also ask them why they do it?
mutsuk
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by mutsuk »

Täpa wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:38 am
mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:26 am
What kind of teachings did teachers offer to lay practitioners throughout the past, if dzogchen was the most secret and the others are only for monastics?
In Tibet or in the West?
I meant in Tibet.
In Tibet, ordinary lay people would be given teachings about daily prayers, small propitiation rituals (for family usage), etc. Non-ordinary lay people, like lay masters, yogis, etc., would receive any kind of teachings but mostly Tantras and Dzogchen (however not exclusively).* In Menri, there were throughout history teachers who would be doubtful about Dzogchen. For instance, the current Lopon Trinley Nyima had a philosophy teachers (Madhyamaka, and so forth) who would not accept Dzogchen as genuine. This is a bit extreme, sure, but not unheard of...
------
* There is a difference between attending gigantic teaching transmissions with hundreds of monks and laypeople together, and personal training on the same teachings given during such transmissions. Most people (monks included) would take these transmissions as a source of blessing, or as a karmic transmission "for later" (in this life or in the next).
Malcolm
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Malcolm »

mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:26 am
Malcolm wrote elsewhere:

You may notice that Bonpos do not teach their serious curriculum of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc.
You have to put that into context. What Malcolm meant is that Bönpos do not give these teachings to Westerners.
Yes, that is what I meant. Not that these Bon curricula are not taught in Bon academies in India, Nepal, and Tibet.
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Sādhaka
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Sādhaka »

mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:13 pmIn Menri, there were throughout history teachers who would be doubtful about Dzogchen. For instance, the current Lopon Trinley Nyima had a philosophy teachers (Madhyamaka, and so forth) who would not accept Dzogchen as genuine. This is a bit extreme, sure, but not unheard of...

Well that’s interesting.

Did the said teachers who doubted Dzogchen practice/study Bönpo Mother Tantra?

And if so, isn’t Bönpo Mother Tantra kind of inextricably linked to Dzogchen in a similar way that Anuyoga seems to be?
Malcolm
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:16 pm
mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:13 pmIn Menri, there were throughout history teachers who would be doubtful about Dzogchen. For instance, the current Lopon Trinley Nyima had a philosophy teachers (Madhyamaka, and so forth) who would not accept Dzogchen as genuine. This is a bit extreme, sure, but not unheard of...

Well that’s interesting.

Perhaps they were Bon Geshes who also trained at Geluk monasteries, where Dzogchen doubt is high.
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Sādhaka
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pmPerhaps they were Bon Geshes who also trained at Geluk monasteries, where Dzogchen doubt is high.

Quite possible.

But that goes back to my question about the Tantra they may have been studying/practicing.

Although maybe they were practicing/studying only Sutra level, or whatever Bön equivalent there is of Outer/Lower Tantra? I should be more familiar with the Nine Ways of Bön, and am not sure what a Bönpo equivalent of Outer/Lower Tantra would be....
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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justsit
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by justsit »

I think Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche does teach some advanced practices in the West, in English.
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Sādhaka
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Sādhaka »

Anyway, maybe any discussion about Menri’s curriculum aside from Sutrayana and Dzogchen, is not a suitable topic for public discussion.

I mean perhaps not a huge deal, but perhaps better left for people to discover on their own if they’re really interested.
Täpa
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Täpa »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:55 pm
mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:26 am
Malcolm wrote elsewhere:

You may notice that Bonpos do not teach their serious curriculum of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc.
You have to put that into context. What Malcolm meant is that Bönpos do not give these teachings to Westerners.
Yes, that is what I meant. Not that these Bon curricula are not taught in Bon academies in India, Nepal, and Tibet.
Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding.

Also that sort of information mutsuk shared about the Menri Lopon seems very interesting to me. The more i come to know about bon/buddhism the more mysterious it gets. Nevertheless, opening this topic lead to a better understanding of what a dzogchen teacher means to me and maybe to be a bit more picky on accepting a teacher or geshe. Thanks a lot for helping me out on this.
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by mutsuk »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:16 pm Did the said teachers who doubted Dzogchen practice/study Bönpo Mother Tantra?
If I recall correctly, I think he was strictly focussed upon "philosophy" which means Madhyamaka, Yogacara, etc. No Tantra (except from compulsory rituals he had to attend) either.
And if so, isn’t Bönpo Mother Tantra kind of inextricably linked to Dzogchen in a similar way that Anuyoga seems to be?
Yes Mother Tantras are replete with Dzogchen conceptions. The Tantra of the Fruit has even been commented in that perspective by Shardza Rinpoche.
mutsuk
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by mutsuk »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm Perhaps they were Bon Geshes who also trained at Geluk monasteries, where Dzogchen doubt is high.
Yes, that's a good point. But there are some counter examples. For instance, Yongdzin Sangye Tenzin, the highest authority on ZZNG (and one of the root-masters of Yongdzin Rinpoche) had a Rabjam degree from one of the 3 main Geluk monasteries (Sera I think but my memory may be wrong here, it's anyway one of the 3 main ones). He was the one who opened the meaning of Dzogchen to Yongdzin Rinpoche. And it is true anyway that except for Dzogchen, Bönpos are very much alike Gelukpas. They can even debate in-between themselves with barely altering the lexicon (bon for chos and vice-versa, g.yung drung for rdo rje and vice versa)...
mutsuk
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by mutsuk »

justsit wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:39 pm I think Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche does teach some advanced practices in the West, in English.
You missed the point. The question is why Bönpos do not teach their Abhidharma, Prajnaparamita, Abhisamayalamkara, Madhyamaka, Yogacara, True/False Aspectarians, etc., to Westerners. I doubt sincerely doubt Tenzin Wangyel can teach any of these topics in English.
Malcolm
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by Malcolm »

mutsuk wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:43 pm
Yes, that's a good point. But there are some counter examples.
I did not mean that every Bon geshe who studied with Geluks would have this attitude, only some.
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by SilenceMonkey »

The 33rd Menri Trizin studied at Drepung in Lhasa for four years until the CCP invaded in '59. Lopon Sangye Tenzin Rinpoche, who was also instrumental at Menri in India, also studied at Drepung in Lhasa and obtained a Geshe degree there.

Not sure about Menri Ponlob Trinley Nyima Rinpoche. Looks like he grew up in Dolpo and went straight to Menri at age 17. Doesn't look like Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche or Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche studied geluk tradition formally either.
mutsuk
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Re: The Serious Curriculum

Post by mutsuk »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:33 pm The 33rd Menri Trizin studied at Drepung in Lhasa for four years until the CCP invaded in '59. Lopon Sangye Tenzin Rinpoche, who was also instrumental at Menri in India, also studied at Drepung in Lhasa and obtained a Geshe degree there.
Thanks. Samten Karmay followed the same curriculum.
Not sure about Menri Ponlob Trinley Nyima Rinpoche. Looks like he grew up in Dolpo and went straight to Menri at age 17.
Yes. He's strictly Bönpo and did not study in Geluk institutions. Same for Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
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