The Origin Of Tibetan Singing Bowls

[Lhasa]

Yes, thank you Malcolm. it's an entirely different kettle of fish.

I have a singing bowl that came from the estate of a high Sakya lama, an abbot, who brought it out of Tibet in the 1950's. It is hand carved, crudely, rough, not polished, not pretty, not commercial. Rather ugly, really. It was used in tantric water rituals. It has a wonderful sound. This was long before the new age bowls appeared.

Garchen Rinpoche is now sharing a recording of a gong-like 'bowl' from Gar monastery in Tibet. He says it is a 'liberation by hearing' sound and he is playing it now before his live-stream teachings. You can hear it on his youtube live stream videos from the last month or so.

I’ve been in the Sakya school for thirty years. Water offerings, yes, sound healing with metal bowls, no.

[frankie]

About the center, there is one Lama there and he has a monastery in Nepal? where he spends most of his time, and visits the center for a couple months each year, prior to covid. Since covid he has been stuck here in the U.S.
He is basically selling teachings ABOUT the teachings. He is not giving you what you need to actually accomplish the teachings online....that has to be in person, and there are other requirements, ngondro and this and that...it gets expensive. And he recently let slip what he REALLY thinks of Westerners, so I would have some doubt about any transmission or empowerment given to Westerners vs. those given to Tibetans. And then teaching women...
I believe he is brilliant, and that the information he is selling is accurate. He just has some issues.
These other Lamas come through on what I call the ATM circuit.
Some of them are not nice people.
Be careful.

If you have serious concerns based on some clear evidence, then I guess you can take it up with the centre involved. If they are inclined to dismiss your concerns, then you may be into a dodgy scene. In which case, then perhaps you could take HHDL's advice and name names in public. Both as a warning to others, and to help prevent them travelling down a dark road as many others have before.

We've seen It is all too easy for dharma crooks to thrive on cowed deference. In light of recent situations, it would be kind of tragic not to adopt something of a zero tolerance policy towards the 'dodgy dharma geezers' from now on.

[Pero]

This is just an appeal to people with new age tendencies. You may notice that Bonpos do not teach their serious curriculum of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc. These texts, though borrowing from Buddhist texts, are not simply copies of Buddhist texts as commonly thought.

The modern Bonpos focus on rituals, and so on, things that have marketing appeal to a certain kind of Westerner. As far as I know, aside from singing bowls, with is complete and utter nonsense, virtually everything else one sees these geshes teach is sourced in authentic Bon traditions.

OK you got me. I’d like to have some sense of how Bon Abhidharma, Madhyamaka, etc differ from Indian Buddhism. Where to look?

Thank you

Make contact with the Shenten Dargye Ling folks, perhaps, if you haven't already done that. I don't know how much they teach on the philosophical side of the curriculum vs practice instructions (on which they teach a lot).

I think we would all agree that singing bowls are BS.

Why? (other than their made up origin)

The fact that a course on singing bowls is being offered by a center, and that that course involves a lama saying something at some point, doesn't necessarily say anything about the lamas teaching in that center, and definitely doesn't say anything about the tradition more broadly. Dharma centers tend to attract a disproportionate number of people into new age stuff, and they like arranging these courses.

At a teaching Tsoknyi Rinpoche was joking a bit about this, something to the effect of how Tibetans never heard about Tibetan singing bowls before they came to the West but now they're all selling ancient Tibetan singing bowls because they know how to make money.

[DGA]

About the center, there is one Lama there and he has a monastery in Nepal? where he spends most of his time, and visits the center for a couple months each year, prior to covid. Since covid he has been stuck here in the U.S.
He is basically selling teachings ABOUT the teachings. He is not giving you what you need to actually accomplish the teachings online....that has to be in person, and there are other requirements, ngondro and this and that...it gets expensive. And he recently let slip what he REALLY thinks of Westerners, so I would have some doubt about any transmission or empowerment given to Westerners vs. those given to Tibetans. And then teaching women...
I believe he is brilliant, and that the information he is selling is accurate. He just has some issues.
These other Lamas come through on what I call the ATM circuit.
Some of them are not nice people.
Be careful.

OK, suppose I take the online course in Red Garuda practice at the Yerubon site. Will I have enough practical knowledge to engage in this practice by the time I finish the course?

[climb-up]

Could there be some level of the pizza effect going here?
Westerners took tibetan bowls and gongs, reimagined them as singing vibratory instruments for healing, and this idea became so popular that Tibetans have been influenced and taken up the practice themselves?

Idk if that would be better or worse?
I actually ended up in a sound healing workshop once. I thought it was going to be about scientific impacts of certain sounds and I walked in and saw singing bowls and gongs and though "Oh sh!T! What did I get myself into!?" :/
It ended up being really wonderful, several of my coworkers had very powerful experiences that they found very healing. I still don't the history of it seriously, of course, but I definitely left with a lot more respect for it than I had before.
Maybe this Rinpoche had some positive experiences with sound healing, thought they were meaningful and useful and just assumed that the historical claims were true?

[Malcolm]

Maybe this Rinpoche had some positive experiences with sound healing, thought they were meaningful and useful and just assumed that the historical claims were true?

2500 years? There wasn’t even Buddhism in Tibet 2500 years ago.

[climb-up]

Maybe this Rinpoche had some positive experiences with sound healing, thought they were meaningful and useful and just assumed that the historical claims were true?

2500 years? There wasn’t even Buddhism in Tibet 2500 years ago.

But he’s a bönpo right? So he’d be going by that timeframe?

[SilenceMonkey]

I have a singing bowl that came from the estate of a high Sakya lama, an abbot, who brought it out of Tibet in the 1950's. It is hand carved, crudely, rough, not polished, not pretty, not commercial. Rather ugly, really. It was used in tantric water rituals. It has a wonderful sound. This was long before the new age bowls appeared.

Garchen Rinpoche is now sharing a recording of a gong-like 'bowl' from Gar monastery in Tibet. He says it is a 'liberation by hearing' sound and he is playing it now before his live-stream teachings. You can hear it on his youtube live stream videos from the last month or so.

I'd bet that anything that Garchen Rinpoche says and any sound he makes is Liberation through hearing.

[Malcolm]

Maybe this Rinpoche had some positive experiences with sound healing, thought they were meaningful and useful and just assumed that the historical claims were true?

2500 years? There wasn’t even Buddhism in Tibet 2500 years ago.

But he’s a bönpo right? So he’d be going by that timeframe?

2500 years ago, there was only the Buddha, in India.

[climb-up]

2500 years? There wasn’t even Buddhism in Tibet 2500 years ago.

But he’s a bönpo right? So he’d be going by that timeframe?

2500 years ago, there was only the Buddha, in India.

But is that how Bönpo see it?
I thought that Bönpo trace their founding to Tonpa Sherab Miwo who they place in 16,000s BCE.

[Malcolm]

But he’s a bönpo right? So he’d be going by that timeframe?

2500 years ago, there was only the Buddha, in India.

But is that how Bönpo see it?
I thought that Bönpo trace their founding to Tonpa Sherab Miwo who they place in 16,000s BCE.

No comment. As far as sound healing with singing bowls go, there was no such thing before the 1980's.

[PadmaVonSamba]

The bowls themselves haven’t been around very long, but the empty space inside the bowls has been around for a really long time. But it took the invention of the bowls to give the inside space that particular shape. The empty space is the important part, otherwise the bowls don’t work.

[frankie]

The bowls themselves haven’t been around very long, but the empty space inside the bowls has been around for a really long time.

This!!

[climb-up]

2500 years ago, there was only the Buddha, in India.

But is that how Bönpo see it?
I thought that Bönpo trace their founding to Tonpa Sherab Miwo who they place in 16,000s BCE.

No comment. As far as sound healing with singing bowls go, there was no such thing before the 1980's.

Well, yeah. But that’s different than wether someone is intentionally lying or has taken claims made on good faith.

[Lhasa]

Practical knowledge, I'd say yes, it's all there. But the transmissions needed to actually practice, you'd have to ask the center. They don't do online empowerments. What does the course description say?

OK, suppose I take the online course in Red Garuda practice at the Yerubon site. Will I have enough practical knowledge to engage in this practice by the time I finish the course?

[Malcolm]

Well, yeah. But that’s different than wether someone is intentionally lying or has taken claims made on good faith.

Caveat emptor.

[climb-up]

Well, yeah. But that’s different than wether someone is intentionally lying or has taken claims made on good faith.

Caveat emptor.

Indeed!