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The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:57 pm
by gelukman
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This massive volume is the third masterpiece in Shar rdza Rinpoche’s trilogy on Bon Great Completion meditation. It is a detailed exposition of Great Completion across twenty one extensive chapters. The opening chapter states of Buddha-nature is inherent to all sentient beings. It also elucidates the 85 positive qualities of the completely purified mind. The second chapter reviews various kinds of pith instructions in the oral tradition, the tantras, and in Great Completion. The third chapter is a detailed discussion of various tantric practices with seed-syllables, sounds, initiations and gift-waves of influence, mandala visualizations, the accumulation and accomplishment stages of generation tantras. The fifth chapter is a detailed discussion of the kinds of spiritual duties required in different practices. The sixth and seventh chapters entail an extensive discussion of the natural state and universal ground and the way appearances arise from this universal ground. The eighth and ninth chapters sets out the sacred physical body—the channels, chakras, energy drops and winds and the unique channel system of the Lamps practice, as well as explaining the pith instructions regarding the practices related to the sacred body. Chapter ten describe the ordinary deluded world of sentient beings, the five elements and their manner of liberation through pointing out the expanse of the dharmakaya. Chapter eleven delineates the Great Completion path of liberation and the fruition of this path. It contains detailed instructions on various emptiness meditations, concentrative evenness, and practices to destroy habitual karmic tendencies and to liberation the mind-stream, and dispelling mistakes and obscurations along the path of liberation, and elucidating the stages along the path according to the capacity of the student. Chapters twelve and thirteen are a general introduction to Bon Great Completion meditation—the mind-, space-, and pith instruction-series of teachings. Chapter fourteen is a detailed explanation of how the pith instructions work in thoroughly cutting through Great Completion practice. Emphasis is given to the importance of ‘not-doing’ instructions for cross-over from ordinary mind to awakened mind, and the manner of liberation to the three-fold embodiment of enlightenment. Chapter fifteen is a detailed explanation of how the pith instructions work in by-passing Great Completion meditation. It begins with a detailed account of the differences between thoroughly cutting through and by-passing practice. It contains a detailed explanation of the Lamps by-passing practice. Chapter 16 elucidates the most secret essential points in by-passing practice, the levels of by-passing visions, and nailing the attainment. Chapter 17 is an explanation of dark retreat by-passing practice. Chapter eighteen presents a pointing out/pith instruction approach to a two pathway system—the path of delusion and samsara and the path of liberation and enlightenment. Emphasis is on the more refined close-to-heart determination as compared with standard pointing out pith instructions. Chapter nineteen discuss the signs of meditative progress expected along the by-passing Great Completion path of liberation. This includes a rare exposition of the four ways to attain rainbow body while dying. Chapter twenty is a detailed review of practices used during dying and the after-death bardos of dharmadhatu and rebirth. The last, twenty first chapter explains the fruition, Buddhahood in some detail—the ground of liberation, the manner of liberation, the process of dharmadhatu exhaustion, how enlightened intention manifests for the advanced practitioner, and how the three-fold embodiment of enlightenment and the primordial wisdoms directly manifest.






https://pointingoutthegreatway.org/book ... restricted

www.amazon.com/Precious-Treasury-Expans ... oks&sr=1-8 Europeans can order from amazon.de, amazon.fr etc

The book was already mentioned in another thread. I feel this precious teachings over 1000 pages needs own thread. So that those interest can find it easily.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:14 pm
by mutsuk
gelukman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:57 pm I feel this precious teachings over 1000 pages needs own thread. So that those interest can find it easily.
The dByings-rig mdzod is indeed a precious teaching (obviously the opus magnum of Shardza Rinpoche) but this translation is so wrong in too numerous places to be a good reference for learning and practicing.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:57 pm
by Malcolm
mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:14 pm
gelukman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:57 pm I feel this precious teachings over 1000 pages needs own thread. So that those interest can find it easily.
The dByings-rig mdzod is indeed a precious teaching (obviously the opus magnum of Shardza Rinpoche) but this translation is so wrong in too numerous places to be a good reference for learning and practicing.
Perhaps an example would be apropos. Not that I doubt you, but others may.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:34 pm
by mutsuk
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:57 pm Perhaps an example would be apropos. Not that I doubt you, but others may.
I just opened the book randomly and put my finger on the page with closed eyes. My finger pointed the last paragraph on p. 751 :

(P. 751) It is the final endpoint to be-accomplished, and therefore it is the fruition. This is what it taken as the path. Therefore, it is called the “fruition path.” If we were to categorize that, we can follow after what is said by the great teacher Drenpa Namkha in his Nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod [Treasury of the Magical Display of Space) where it says, “The practitioner of Great Completion who accepts the difference as being self-arising, with a knife cuts the rope of everything to-be-known, and such a practitioner of Great Completion self-liberates everything into the source, the universal ground just as it is. Through that you set up [the mind] on the essential point, namely (p. 752) awakened awareness. Two things are shown. The first has ten schools of thoughts.”

The original in tibetan says (vol. II, p. 81) :

de nyid bsgrub bya mthar thug pas ‘bras bu yin la/ de lam du byed pa la ‘bras bu lam byed pa zhes bya’o/ de la dbye na slob dpon chen po dran pa nam mkhas nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod du bkod pa’i rjes su ‘brang nas/ ‘dod pa tha dad pa rang shar ba’i rdzogs pa chen pos shes bya ‘gris thag bcad pa dang gzhi ci bzhin nyid kyi skye mched du rang grol ba’i rdzogs pa chen pos rig pa gnad la dbab pa dang gnyis su bstan pa las/ dang po la sde bcur yod de/ nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod las/...

But just having a look at the opening homages of the book and the intention of the author following these homages are "good" examples of how problematic these renderings are... I am not criticising the choice of vocabulary (that's a personal choice and taste) but feel rather concerned with the understanding of the grammar.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:18 pm
by Malcolm
mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:57 pm Perhaps an example would be apropos. Not that I doubt you, but others may.
I just opened the book randomly and put my finger on the page with closed eyes. My finger pointed the last paragraph on p. 751 :

(P. 751) It is the final endpoint to be-accomplished, and therefore it is the fruition. This is what it taken as the path. Therefore, it is called the “fruition path.” If we were to categorize that, we can follow after what is said by the great teacher Drenpa Namkha in his Nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod [Treasury of the Magical Display of Space) where it says, “The practitioner of Great Completion who accepts the difference as being self-arising, with a knife cuts the rope of everything to-be-known, and such a practitioner of Great Completion self-liberates everything into the source, the universal ground just as it is. Through that you set up [the mind] on the essential point, namely (p. 752) awakened awareness. Two things are shown. The first has ten schools of thoughts.”

The original in tibetan says (vol. II, p. 81) :

de nyid bsgrub bya mthar thug pas ‘bras bu yin la/ de lam du byed pa la ‘bras bu lam byed pa zhes bya’o/ de la dbye na slob dpon chen po dran pa nam mkhas nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod du bkod pa’i rjes su ‘brang nas/ ‘dod pa tha dad pa rang shar ba’i rdzogs pa chen pos shes bya ‘gris thag bcad pa dang gzhi ci bzhin nyid kyi skye mched du rang grol ba’i rdzogs pa chen pos rig pa gnad la dbab pa dang gnyis su bstan pa las/ dang po la sde bcur yod de/ nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod las/...

But just having a look at the opening homages of the book and the intention of the author following these homages are "good" examples of how problematic these renderings are... I am not criticising the choice of vocabulary (that's a personal choice and taste) but feel rather concerned with the understanding of the grammar.
Yes, even this much somewhat incorrectly rendered:

It is the final endpoint to be-accomplished, and therefore it is the fruition. This is what it taken as the path. Therefore, it is called the “fruition path.”

de nyid bsgrub bya mthar thug pas ‘bras bu yin la/ de lam du byed pa la ‘bras bu lam byed pa zhes bya’o/

It should be something like:

"Since that is culmination of what is to be accomplished, it is the result. That is employed as the path, [hence it is] called "employing the result [as] the path."

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:31 pm
by mutsuk
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:18 pm
mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:57 pm Perhaps an example would be apropos. Not that I doubt you, but others may.
I just opened the book randomly and put my finger on the page with closed eyes. My finger pointed the last paragraph on p. 751 :

(P. 751) It is the final endpoint to be-accomplished, and therefore it is the fruition. This is what it taken as the path. Therefore, it is called the “fruition path.” If we were to categorize that, we can follow after what is said by the great teacher Drenpa Namkha in his Nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod [Treasury of the Magical Display of Space) where it says, “The practitioner of Great Completion who accepts the difference as being self-arising, with a knife cuts the rope of everything to-be-known, and such a practitioner of Great Completion self-liberates everything into the source, the universal ground just as it is. Through that you set up [the mind] on the essential point, namely (p. 752) awakened awareness. Two things are shown. The first has ten schools of thoughts.”

The original in tibetan says (vol. II, p. 81) :

de nyid bsgrub bya mthar thug pas ‘bras bu yin la/ de lam du byed pa la ‘bras bu lam byed pa zhes bya’o/ de la dbye na slob dpon chen po dran pa nam mkhas nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod du bkod pa’i rjes su ‘brang nas/ ‘dod pa tha dad pa rang shar ba’i rdzogs pa chen pos shes bya ‘gris thag bcad pa dang gzhi ci bzhin nyid kyi skye mched du rang grol ba’i rdzogs pa chen pos rig pa gnad la dbab pa dang gnyis su bstan pa las/ dang po la sde bcur yod de/ nam mkha’ ‘phrul mdzod las/...

But just having a look at the opening homages of the book and the intention of the author following these homages are "good" examples of how problematic these renderings are... I am not criticising the choice of vocabulary (that's a personal choice and taste) but feel rather concerned with the understanding of the grammar.
Yes, even this much somewhat incorrectly rendered:

It is the final endpoint to be-accomplished, and therefore it is the fruition. This is what it taken as the path. Therefore, it is called the “fruition path.”

de nyid bsgrub bya mthar thug pas ‘bras bu yin la/ de lam du byed pa la ‘bras bu lam byed pa zhes bya’o/

It should be something like:

"Since that is culmination of what is to be accomplished, it is the result. That is employed as the path, [hence it is] called "employing the result [as] the path."
Indeed. For me the worst part was the one that directly follows, where Mr Brown did not recognize the heading of two chapters from the Namkha Trüldzö (rang shar ba'i rdzogs pa chen po and rang grol ba'i rdzogs pa chen po), not to mention the 'gris thag bcad pa ("with a knife cuts the rope of ...") which is obviously to be corrected into gras/gros thag bcad pa (resolve, decide, understand) which Mr Brown could have least had guessed since this quite frequent expression is in dictionaries...

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:39 pm
by Malcolm
mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:31 pm not to mention the 'gris thag bcad pa ("with a knife cuts the rope of ...") which is obviously to be corrected into gras/gros thag bcad pa (resolve, decide, understand) which Mr Brown could have least had guessed since this quite frequent expression is in dictionaries...
Yup. In translation, missing by an inch is the same as missing by a mile. Well, you know what they say, caveat emptor.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:12 am
by gelukman
Well the translators have in this case decided to use these words.
Of course it may not please the bibliophiles or poets.
Practitioners practice and keep it simple.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:29 am
by mutsuk
gelukman wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:12 am Well the translators have in this case decided to use these words.
Of course it may not please the bibliophiles or poets.
Practitioners practice and keep it simple.
This is not the problem. The problem is that the main translator does not understand classical tibetan enough to produce a translation that is correct (no matter the choice of vocabulary). Brown's translations of Bon works that I have been able to read are replete with mistakes on each page. What you read in this book is Brown's limited understanding, not Shardza Rinpoche's authentic knowledge. So yes, practitioners can keep it simple for their own good, so long as they don't rely on something that is basically wrong throughout.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:25 pm
by Malcolm
gelukman wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:12 am Well the translators have in this case decided to use these words.
Of course it may not please the bibliophiles or poets.
Practitioners practice and keep it simple.
The problem is this: these translations are not peer-reviewed. They are self-published. Mutsuk is not criticizing them purely out of spite, but rather out of a concern that practitioners have accurate information at their disposal.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:28 am
by gelukman
Amazing book !!!
Now there is some discount at amazon.com
Save $21.66 at checkout.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:35 am
by mutsuk
gelukman wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:28 am Amazing book !!!
If you read tibetan, I sincerely invite you to check — even simply the opening homages — this "translation" since it is literally replete with mistakes throughout. It is indeed "amazing" by its author's lack of understanding of : 1. the actual grammar (numberless mistakes due to not recognizing the ellipse of the subject, ignorance of idiomatic formulas, hilarious renderings of titles quoted, etc.) and 2. of the Bön philosophy and its lexicon. Honestly, this book is a disservice to Bön.
You can get the tibetan for free here:
https://library.bdrc.io/show/bdr:MW2CZ7 ... en-viewer

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:10 am
by gelukman
mutsuk wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:35 am
gelukman wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:28 am Amazing book !!!
If you read tibetan, I sincerely invite you to check — even simply the opening homages — this "translation" since it is literally replete with mistakes throughout. It is indeed "amazing" by its author's lack of understanding of : 1. the actual grammar (numberless mistakes due to not recognizing the ellipse of the subject, ignorance of idiomatic formulas, hilarious renderings of titles quoted, etc.) and 2. of the Bön philosophy and its lexicon. Honestly, this book is a disservice to Bön.
You can get the tibetan for free here:
https://library.bdrc.io/show/bdr:MW2CZ7 ... en-viewer
Well I have not read the book yet...
It is very easy to scold any one, especially without evidence.
I understand the seriousness of course if there are mistakes like this:
A young monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned to helping the other monks in copying the old canons and laws of the church by hand. He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript.




So, the new monk goes to the head abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up. In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.

The head monk says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son." So, he goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscripts are held as archives in a locked vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years.

Hours go by and nobody sees the old abbot. So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing, "We missed the "R", we missed the "R". His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying uncontrollably.


The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, father?" With a choking voice, the old abbot replies, "The word was CELEBRATE!"
Then it is really serious :rolling:

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:01 pm
by mutsuk
gelukman wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:10 am Well I have not read the book yet...
Well then how do you know it is amazing? I mean you are misleading potential readers. You should not praise this material since, if the original is of course amazing, the rendering by Brown is ugly, often nonsensical, of a low literary level, etc. This would probably sound secondary (but this is nevertheless part of the art of translating) if it were not for several big mistakes on nearly EACH page.
It is very easy to scold any one, especially without evidence.
I have provided an example taken at random in an above post. You should take the time to read it as well as complementary answers to it.

Now if you want the original first homage, it goes like this :
ngo bo ka nas dag pas dngos dang mtshan ma’i spros pa bral yang stong pa phyam chad ma yin ‘od gsal gnyug ma’i ngang/
rang bzhin lhun gyis grub pas sku dang ye shes bsam mi khyab kyang rtag pa ther zug ma yin sgyu ma’i rol par ston/
thugs rjes kun la khyab pas gzigs pa gnyis ldan ye shes brnyes kyang gzung ‘dzin rtog (p. 3) bcas ma yin rtag tu g.yo med gnas/
rnam gsum dbye bsal bral bar ‘gro ba’i bla ma gcig tu bzhugs kyang gzhan nas ma yin so so rang rig de la ‘dud/


You have four very long verses of 25 feet, not four separate sentences (or groups of independent sentences as rendered by Brown). They are all connected as a quatrain, the first verse discussing Essence, the second Nature, and the third Compassion; the fourth is the formulation of the homage itself in the form of a prostration ('dud). So what Shardza basically says is that he is prostrating to his own (or one's own) individual Rigpa, which abides as 1. Essence, 2. Nature, and 3. Compassion. The rest in the first three verses concerns the "description" or "characteristics" (for lack of a better word) of the three Wisdoms (for instance: Essence is presented as primordially pure, free from proliferations expressed in terms of graspable characteristics, matter, etc., as well as not being a vain empty state but a state of Clear-Light). Compare with the rendering by Brown (on p. 169): he fails to understand that this is a quatrain, he fails to correct phyam chad into phyal chad in the first verse, he does not understand what dbye-bsal means (in Jim Valby's lexicon this is "analyzing and removing" or "division and exclusion" in Rangjung yeshe), etc. Just take dbye bsal bral ba which means devoid of division of exclusion" which Brown renders (pp. 169-170) as: "beyond categorization and beyond having to be made clear”. I don't mind equating dbye with categorization (when it is actually often something else) but reading bsal (remove, exclude) as gsal (clear, luminous) means : Brown does not know that idiomatic, classic formula (dbye bsal med pa/bral ba) and does not understand what is implied. This means that the threefold state (Essence, Nature and Compassion) cannot be differentiated (dbye) into individual entities since they make up the Single Thiglé (thig le nyag gcig) and there is no reason to exclude or remove (bsal) anything from this state since it is already perfect as it is. There is no idea about categorization (categorizing what and into what?) and making something clear...

So just for the opening of the text: 1. he does not understand that this is a quatrain (and he will make the same mistake with the next two homages paid to Shes rab smra ba'i seng ge and then to mNyam med Shes rab rgyal mtshan), 2. he does not connect the four sentences together (which basically mean : "To the primordially pure Essence..., to the spontaneously accomplished Nature...., to the all-embracing Compassion..., To these three.... which are my (one's) own individual Awareness, I bow down"), 3. he does not see what is necessary to correct (phyam chad => phyal chad), 4. he does not understand some classic idiomatic formula (which means his "volume" of reading Tibetan texts is obviously limited), 5. upon checking it appears he also does not understand so so rang rig...

This is like this throughout the whole book.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:06 am
by DGA
mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:14 pm
gelukman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:57 pm I feel this precious teachings over 1000 pages needs own thread. So that those interest can find it easily.
The dByings-rig mdzod is indeed a precious teaching (obviously the opus magnum of Shardza Rinpoche) but this translation is so wrong in too numerous places to be a good reference for learning and practicing.
Is there institutional or other support for this translation (or translator)?

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:59 am
by mutsuk
DGA wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:06 am
mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:14 pm
gelukman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:57 pm I feel this precious teachings over 1000 pages needs own thread. So that those interest can find it easily.
The dByings-rig mdzod is indeed a precious teaching (obviously the opus magnum of Shardza Rinpoche) but this translation is so wrong in too numerous places to be a good reference for learning and practicing.
Is there institutional or other support for this translation (or translator)?
It is self-published.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:47 am
by DGA
I got curious about it because translation is time-intensive work done by well-trained specialists. It ain't cheap, so there's typically some institutional support, or just straight-up financial support, behind translation projects. Here's what I learned:
Pointing Out The Great Way Foundation supported the wishes of the late, His Holiness 33rd Menri Trizen to translate the sacred Tibetan teachings into English and make them available to the world. The POGW Foundation supported Dr. Daniel Brown and Geshe Sonam Gurung in making that vision possible.

Dr. Brown received the transmissions and permission to translate and teach the Bon A Khrid Great Completion lineage meditation practices. Dr. Brown and Geshe Sonam Gurung have translated the main A Khrid root text and commentary from Tibetan into a form that Westerners can practice.

His Holiness also asked Dr. Brown with Geshe Sonam Gurung, to translate the 11 books of the Self-Arising Threefold Embodiment of Enlightenment by Shar rdza ‘Bkra Shis rGyal mTshan. This collection contains the most advanced meditations commonly practiced by the cave and hermitage yogis that complete the path to enlightenment. Our funding has made these advanced meditations that have never before been shown to or translated in the West possible.

The gift of these teachings to the West, in the form of the practices and translations, is a precious treasure that inspires our gratitude (and motivates us) to give back to the larger Bon community and to restore and preserve the culture of these indigenous people.
There's more at

https://pointingoutthegreatway.org/completed-projects/

I'm posting this because it may give some context around how these translations have come into being, and what their significance might be or become

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:33 am
by mutsuk
DGA wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:47 am I got curious about it because translation is time-intensive work done by well-trained specialists.
Brown is not a well-trained specialist. At all. His knowledge of classical tibetan is terribly limited. This explains the flawed results.
It ain't cheap,
His Point out the great way is VERY wealthy. Brown owns it. It is his own publishing house.
so there's typically some institutional support
The books remain self-published.
Pointing Out The Great Way Foundation supported the wishes of the late, His Holiness 33rd Menri Trizen to translate the sacred Tibetan teachings into English and make them available to the world.
And His Holiness was not able to "appreciate" these renderings because his level of English does not enable him to do so.
Dr. Brown ... translated the main A Khrid root text and commentary from Tibetan into a form that Westerners can practice.
A text which has been translated several times into English and other languages. It is not as if it was a novelty. It is true that the Ngo-sprod text had not been translated into English before (it had been done in French) but in Brown's book it has been mixed with the root-text in 15 sessions or interlaced into it and its translation is flawed in numerous ways.
His Holiness also asked Dr. Brown with Geshe Sonam Gurung, to translate the 11 books of the Self-Arising Threefold Embodiment of Enlightenment by Shar rdza ‘Bkra Shis rGyal mTshan.
The sKu-gsum rang-shar counts at least 30 texts and often 32 or 33 in the main editions. Brown's translation is therefore by far not a "complete translation".
Our funding has made these advanced meditations that have never before been shown to or translated in the West possible.
Wrong! Several texts of the sKu-gsum rang-shar have been published in English, in French, and in German (maybe in Italian, not sure). Some transcripts have been published in French, in English, and in Italian (some are available at Shenten Ling). All this was done way before Brown.

The translation of the dByings-rig-mdzod is presented as having been done under the guidance of the 33rd Menri Abbot. His Holiness did not check that material: 1. his knowledge of English did not enable him to do so and if he had checked it he would certainly not have authorized the publication of this "rendering" since it is flawed in such a way that it is actually a total disservice to Bon; and 2. His Holiness was seriously ill during that period.
I'm posting this because it may give some context around how these translations have come into being, and what their significance might be or become
Their significance is null. I am not alone in saying that Brown's material is flawed. JLA, who has translated all that material already, told me that Brown's rendering are mostly wrong and that they are not a material serious practitioners should rely on. He also told me recently that Kurt Keutzer (Berkeley Univ.) has been working on the Bardo chapter of the Kun-bzang snying thig (also butcherly "translated" by Brown) with Geshe Lhundrup (Chaphur Rinpoche from the Gyaltsen Institute) and that Brown's rendering is simply wrong in too many places in a single chapter that it is not reliable at all. Gerd Manusch (from the Naldjor Institute) is also of the same opinion. Thus, the three translators who have been working on these texts and know them very well share the same feeling.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:43 pm
by DGA
THANK YOU MUTSUK for the very helpful and detailed response. I now have a much better understanding of how this situation has unfolded. Wow. What more is there to say?

There are a few points related to my last post that I must have communicated poorly, but since this is a public forum and questions turn up, here's to clarity:

Translations, generally, really are expensive and time-intensive because real translations require significant technical and linguistic and cultural expertise.

I have made no claims on Brown's expertise, but based on the comments made in this thread by people who know what they're talking about, I'm certainly glad I haven't purchased any of his books. Full disclosure: I haven't known anyone named Dan Brown since I was in boy scouts in the early 1990s.

Finally--errors, distortions, and problems in translations of sacred texts definitely have bad consequences, and that's why I think it's important to discuss issues like this one openly.

Again, thank you.

Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:25 pm
by Fozza
A useful and 'enlightening' discussion. The difference in the comparative translation provided above is significant. I do wonder about the role of the co-translator in all this. Whatever the case, does anyone know where to acquire a more finessed English translation. I have no knowledge of the Tibetan. Many thanks.