To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

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gelukman
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To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by gelukman »

To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.
By:
John Reynolds

Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche quotes here from a Bönpo historical text, the Srid-rgyud.
According to the story found there, long ago there lived 3 beggars in India (actually Nepal) who collected alms and, making wise investments, they later became very rich. They thereupon conceived the good intention to erect a great Stupa in gratitude for their good fortune.
Thus they began building the stupa of Jyarung Khashor (jya-rong kha-shor), now known as the Baudhanath stupa in the village of Baudha, east of Kathmandu in the country of Nepal. But they grew old and died before they could complete their work.
Thus, they made the vow to be reborn in the future in order to complete this pious task.
- The first vowed to be reborn as the architect
- The second as the patron for its construction
- The third as the workman.
Thereafter they were reborn as they had vowed and completed the building of the great Stupa. But before he died the next time, the patron expressed the aspiration to be reborn as a powerful king in Ngari (West Tibet) and the architect vowed to be reborn as a Buddhist emissary.
But worn out by his arduous Iabors, the third man vowed to be reborn in Tibet as a Bön-suppressing translator.
Later attaining rebirths just as they had vowed, the architect became the lotus-born Guru Padmasambhava and the patron became the king Trisong Detsan.
But the builder and workman was reborn as Bodhisattva, whom some identify as the scholar-monk Shantirakshita.
The latter, however, was reborn as the son of a servant belonging to an inferior family because of the hostile prayers that he had made before his death in Nepal where he vowed to destroy Bön.

And according to the Gri-shad, there were also the effects of the curses uttered centuries before by the king Drigum Tsanpo, which now came to fruition at this time.
Moreover, according to the Srid-rgyud, because of his earlier prayers made in a previous lifetime, the king Trisong Detsan was more attracted to the Indian form of Buddhism than he was to Bön. And because he neglected the rites of Bön, various natural disasters befell the land.
Ghosts and demons engaged in soul stealing. Plagues, lightning, and hail storms afflicted Lhasa. The king consulted a Bönpo
diviner by the name of Pe Negu (sPe ne-gu). He advised the king that the calamities were all due to the incestuous birth of an individual who exercised great magical powers.
After a prolonged investigation and search, a 15 year old boy was identified as this star-crossed child and he was expelled from the land. Sitting on an ox, together with the appropriate ransoms, he was dispatched to the southwest where eventually he reached India. There the boy studied Indian Buddhism and eventually became a learned scholar possessing magical powers.
He received the name of Anda Bodhisattva. Recalling the prayers made in his previous lifetime, where he promised to destroy Bön, he wrote a letter to the king of Tibet, intending to take revenge on those Bönpos who had caused him to be sent away from his homeland as a scapegoat.
His letter reawakened the king's faith in Indian Buddhism. Also the king received reports at that time of a prophetic dream that
had come to Pantalikha, the king of Mon.
Shardza Rinpoche continues, saying that during the lifetimes of Tonggyung Thuchen, Pa Jitrom Karpo, Nangzher Lodpo, Dranpa
Namkha, and Lishu Tagring, although the teachings of Bön had spread widely, still there were many people whose behavior was immoral and perverse.
Many monks had broken their vows and had allowed the moral disciple to deteriorate. Priests and magicians practicing Tantric rites became arrogant and proud of their magical powers.
Many shrines and pilgrimage sites were neglected or even destroyed. Therefore, the king considered carefully what the Buddhist monk Bodhisattva had proposed to him and also the portents that appeared in the dream of the king of Mon.
Therefore, he decided that the time had come to suppress Yungdrung Bön and import spiritual teachers from India.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/6753847 ... &ref=notif

I found it in facebook bon group. I wanted it to be removed. As I think the story is gossip and a seed of disharmony. But the group admin was of a different opinion. What do you think?
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

My two cents:

This sort of thing is exactly what limited my participation in Bon teachings. Not so much anything to do with the teachings, but because some practitioners are so focused on stuff like this. Seems unhealthy, and not conducive to practice.

I mean, there is some sort of...seriously unresolved karmic issues between Bon and Buddhism, I get it, and I get why to some degree it is important to preserve and acknowledge this. However, taking all the back and forth so seriously is to me going down the wrong path. I guess someone has to be "that guy", but we reap what we sow so to speak, and choosing to focus ones mental energies on these sorts of accounts is maybe not the best thing.

So basically, I agree. There is a very sectarian side to Bon. You can say it's "justified" somehow I guess, but looking for justification there is not healthy in the first place.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Malcolm »

gelukman wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:39 pm
I found it in facebook bon group. I wanted it to be removed. As I think the story is gossip and a seed of disharmony. But the group admin was of a different opinion. What do you think?
I think it is typical Bonpo history, no more slanderous of Buddhism than Buddhist accounts of Bon are slanderous of Bon.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:11 pm
gelukman wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:39 pm
I found it in facebook bon group. I wanted it to be removed. As I think the story is gossip and a seed of disharmony. But the group admin was of a different opinion. What do you think?
I think it is typical Bonpo history, no more slanderous of Buddhism than Buddhist accounts of Bon are slanderous of Bon.
This is a good point, but I think the question is something like "does this serve any real purpose in a Facebook group with Buddhist and Bonpo practitioners".

I'm making an assumption here that this is the kind of situation gelukman is talking about, having run into it a number of times myself. Apologies if I'm off base gelukman.

I don't understand why people who are all polemic about either side would even participate in a mixed group, but they seem to do so pretty often.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:36 pm This is a good point, but I think the question is something like "does this serve any real purpose in a Facebook group with Buddhist and Bonpo practitioners".

I'm making an assumption here that this is the kind of situation gelukman is talking about, having run into it a number of times myself. Apologies if I'm off base gelukman.

I don't understand why people who are all polemic about either side would even participate in a mixed group, but they seem to do so pretty often.
I'd say that it just makes some people feel good to be the "underground", the "victims" or the "opposition".

I see it in Czech cultural context all of the time. Some people are just stuck in the socialist era where you had to dig for truth and neigbours and friends were more to be trusted than the official sources. So now they think they are so edgy for thinking that everything the most respected media say is a lie. They know the truth about European Union, they know the truth about vaccines, they know the secret truth behind the virus, etc etc.

But I'd say this sort of text is a seed of trouble. How to deal with it? If you delete it it causes trouble because you are deleting the truth, so you are a buddhist supremacist, if you let it there you are causing trouble because some people will start blaming buddhists, etc. It's a small version of our big troubles. :lol:
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Passing By »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:07 pm My two cents:

This sort of thing is exactly what limited my participation in Bon teachings. Not so much anything to do with the teachings, but because some practitioners are so focused on stuff like this. Seems unhealthy, and not conducive to practice.

I mean, there is some sort of...seriously unresolved karmic issues between Bon and Buddhism, I get it, and I get why to some degree it is important to preserve and acknowledge this. However, taking all the back and forth so seriously is to me going down the wrong path. I guess someone has to be "that guy", but we reap what we sow so to speak, and choosing to focus ones mental energies on these sorts of accounts is maybe not the best thing.

So basically, I agree. There is a very sectarian side to Bon. You can say it's "justified" somehow I guess, but looking for justification there is not healthy in the first place.
TBH, none of the prominent Bonpo teachers on the international scene today hold any sectarian views and are focused purely on practice. In fact from the way you hear them speak it wouldn't be surprising if they are trained in the other Tibetan Buddhist schools as well.

So yeah, personally I just ignore the background noise, focus on the guru and the teachings, then eff off back to my normal life where I carry out the instructions/practice/normal life stuff while shutting out the lameness of sectarianism over teachings about one's life experience and mind. That's a personal matter for old school conservatives in both Bon and non-Bon to deal with, and the trend is against them anyway....Because the teachings and gurus are really good and that's all that matters

As for the quoted FB post, if you read again, actually none of it slanders Indian Buddhism, calling it false or ineffective etc, so much as accounts for why Bon declined due to failure on the Bonpos' part. Shardza Rinpoche was not sectarian at all.

In fact I think what's more interesting is how Bon Dzogchen and Indian Dzogchen came about, historically speaking. One gets the feeling there's a common root sometime Padmasambhava and Drenpa Namkha showed up on scene in the 700s and that the Bon form common today seems closer to the form of practice common then. MIght be a skillfull means to teach Dzogchen to segments of the society who were marginalized then. Or might actually be separate streams coming in from India and the Central Asian area (Yetri Thasel is supposed to be from those regions after all, and Shense Lhaje's terma predates the Khandro Nyinthig so couldn't have been based on that AFAIK)
Last edited by Passing By on Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Passing By wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:17 am

TBH, none of the prominent Bonpo teachers on the international scene today hold any sectarian views and are focused purely on practice. In fact from the way you hear them speak it wouldn't be surprising if they are trained in the other Tibetan Buddhist schools as well.
Oh I know, I've taken a number of Bon teachings...I'm talking about ordinary practitioners with whom I've interacted, not teachers or lineage representatives.
So yeah, personally I just ignore the background noise, focus on the guru and the teachings, then eff off back to my normal life where I carry out the instructions/practice/normal life stuff while ignoring the political baggage. That's a personal matter for old school conservatives in both Bon and non-Bon to deal with, and the trend is against them anyway....Because the teachings and gurus are really good and that's all that matters
That's a good policy. The thing is though, some people can be doctrinaire, and the ground is ripe for being doctrinaire when you are a Buddhist attending a Bon group - which I've been. I don't take it personally at all, it's just something that was in the air, so to speak. I know the opposite exists too - people who don't like Bon and think it's not legitimate, I have no experience being around those folks.
In fact I think what's more interesting is how Bon Dzogchen and Indian Dzogchen came about, historically speaking. One gets the feeling there's a common root sometime Padmasambhava and Drenpa Namkha showed up on scene in the 700s and that the Bon form common today seems closer to the form of practice common then. MIght be a skillfull means to teach Dzogchen to segments of the society who were marginalized then. Or might actually be separate streams coming in from India and the Central Asian area (Yetri Thasel is supposed to be from those regions after all)
For sure, I'm quite grateful for the Bon teachings I've received, and consider them very precious. I've also really benefited greatly from a couple of Bon texts. I do think that if one is primarily a Buddhist practitioner, the Bonpo historical narrative is possibly hard to swallow in places. For instance, I can't resonate with the Bon version of the Heart Sutra, other than what you mention here - it is a way for the Prajnaparamita teachings to reach people who they otherwise would not have. And after all, Buddhas take various forms, etc. And in many ways, the Mahayana narrative is as removed from a "normal" historical context as Bon.

I think with Dzogchen in some ways this is less of an issue than with "lower" teachings and the narratives that accompany them, Dzogchen is Dzogchen, and sectarian Dzogchen is a particularly silly notion.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Passing By »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:34 am
Passing By wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:17 am

TBH, none of the prominent Bonpo teachers on the international scene today hold any sectarian views and are focused purely on practice. In fact from the way you hear them speak it wouldn't be surprising if they are trained in the other Tibetan Buddhist schools as well.
Oh I know, I've taken a number of Bon teachings...I'm talking about ordinary practitioners with whom I've interacted, not teachers or lineage representatives.

There's the problem......Especially on Facebook where random people with all sorts of cultural baggage pop up and fire one-liners before disappearing.
I know the opposite exists too - people who don't like Bon and think it's not legitimate, I have no experience being around those folks.
Plenty of them online, and it can be even more toxic actually. I generally hide my lineage affiliations when attending teachings from either side. Just be that random stranger from outside coming in to attend a lecture.
I think with Dzogchen in some ways this is less of an issue than with "lower" teachings and the narratives that accompany them
I too, am too used to Nyingma/Drikung yidams to not feel some Alice in Wonderland syndrome when I see Bon ones but meh, dakinis are dakinis and they all look similar enough anyway. Sherab Chamma for example can easily be seen as Tara in another form etc.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Passing By wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:46 am
There's the problem......Especially on Facebook where random people with all sorts of cultural baggage pop up and fire one-liners before disappearing.
Wel, that's part of it, but my comments are actually primarily based on in-person experience. So while that kind of stuff is discussed more freely on the internet, I've seen it in meatspace too...back in the "before times", lol.

Plenty of them online, and it can be even more toxic actually. I generally hide my lineage affiliations when attending teachings from either side. Just be that random stranger from outside coming in to attend a lecture.
I could see it, I've just not run into one yet.

I too, am too used to Nyingma/Drikung yidams to not feel some Alice in Wonderland syndrome when I see Bon ones but meh, dakinis are dakinis and they all look similar enough anyway. Sherab Chamma for example can easily be seen as Tara in another form etc.
Yeah for me the actual mantras are the issue, the Yidams are similar enough, the melodies and mantras though...not so much.


Since I am not much of a Tantrika anyway, it is not a big deal to me.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Arura »

Well, according Bön the topic is a fact and this is seen here as disturbing or not so beneficial in general?
Bön differs here and there from Vajrayana and that sod be seen as acceptable.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by gelukman »

As I think the story is gossip and a seed of disharmony.
I dont believe that Shardza would ever quote that text, as it is nonsense.



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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Arura »

gelukman wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:26 pm
As I think the story is gossip and a seed of disharmony.
I dont believe that Shardza would ever quote that text, as it is nonsense.

Between believe and prooving is a gap.
Maybee it's better to acept the auhenticitie of non Budha text
?
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

How does one be “born as an architect”?
:rolling:
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Arura »

The writer of thetext is shardza tashie gjatshen aand he got reanbow bodie.
reanbow bodie people lie maybe ?
Dificuult to saay yes ?
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Passing By »

Arura wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:04 pm The writer of thetext is shardza tashie gjatshen aand he got reanbow bodie.
reanbow bodie people lie maybe ?
Dificuult to saay yes ?
Or maybe you just do as Shardza suggests and carry out his practice instructions instead of extending thousand year old Tibetan politics into the 21st century

Bon has one interpretation of past history while Nyingma (Not Vajrayana since Bon itself is tantric Vajrayana whether you like it or not) has another. Neither of it is important if you care about rainbow body so much
gelukman wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:26 pm
As I think the story is gossip and a seed of disharmony.
I dont believe that Shardza would ever quote that text, as it is nonsense.

I don't know about that text but if you look at hagiographies of Bon mahasiddhas and khandros there's plenty of accounts of them fending off Trisong Detsen's repression. So yes, the Bon view of the king and his people are understandably rather negative.

What's also true though is that Padmasambhava is revered by Bon and the story of him and Drenpa Namkha working to preserve Yungdrung Bon from the king may not only have some historical basis to it but also serves as a lesson it of itself on dharma trumping sectarianism and politics
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Arura »

Passing By wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:25 pm
Arura wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:04 pm The writer of thetext is shardza tashie gjatshen aand he got reanbow bodie.
reanbow bodie people lie maybe ?
Dificuult to saay yes ?
Or maybe you just do as Shardza suggests and carry out his practice instructions instead of extending thousand year old Tibetan politics into the 21st century
shaardza tashi gyaaltseen did written the historie text then he lying ?
Reynboow bodis can lie Maybee?
This fhirst then talke from reanbow bodie from tashie and whaT we work
Bon different story has , nyingmaa also other story , dorje also other historie
think not same all.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by gelukman »

Generally stated it would be unfathomable if Guru Rinpoche, Vairochana and the King would have something against their own doctrines aka
Kuntuzangpo. Yungdrung Bon is very Kuntuzangpo.

But again I would understand if they have something against the shamanistic himalayan religion that have been there for long time.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Sādhaka »

There is also this:


Malcolm wrote: ...Guru Chowang, the immediate incarnation of Nyangral, and the terton who revealed the seven line prayer. Guru Chowang wrote in his Great Origin of Treasures:


"First: the two the supreme of all beneficial qualities, [5/a] the treasure of the true words of Bon emanations: the way the compassionate body came from the pure dimension of the ultimate nature [bon nyid i.e. chos nyid] and the after the treasure of body, speech and mind arose, the way the teaching was spread, i.e. the way a treasure descends from a treasure.

“First: the pure dimension of the ultimate nature completely free from falling into any parts or divisions was singular and unique, the treasure of the hidden Bon dharmakāya [bon chos sku] which has nothing to give up, appeared from pure activity to tame beings as the sambhogakāya Shenlha Wodkar [gshen lha 'od dkar]. The way his compassion was moved is that in general he thought of all migrating beings. Specifically, he thought of beings in Jambudvīpa.

“Second: after the treasure of the body, speech and mind was produced, the teachings were widely spread. The way the treasure descends from a treasure is that in order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara,at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon.

“Afterwards, Shenrab's words were collected by the fortune Bonpos and placed in a catalogue. The cause Bon tamed ordinary beings, and result Bon tamed intelligent beings.

“The teachings were spread in Tokharistan, where people wear silk turbans, the land India and the border lands and also spread in dPur rGyal in Tibet and Bon was disseminated in the beginning.

“The King was given the name as the Elder Brother of Bon because he made sure the teaching did not decline, and also he concealed the Bon treasures of cause and result in Zhang Zhung the temple of Shampo Lhatse. Furthermore, as they were spread in the mountain of white peaks in Oddiyana, the Chinese mountain Dru Dzin [5/b] and in southern and northern Tibet, having concealed treasures which descended from treasures, the Bon texts were not destroyed, and the Bonpos became renowned.

“Also I, Chowang, say that the profound teaching of Bon is uninterrupted."
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Malcolm »

gelukman wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:46 pm Generally stated it would be unfathomable if Guru Rinpoche, Vairochana and the King would have something against their own doctrines aka
Kuntuzangpo. Yungdrung Bon is very Kuntuzangpo.
In general, these accounts are all from at least three centuries after the stated events. It is very clear that the Bonpos altered their own historical records in the Zhang Zhung Snyan brgyud to revise the time of assassination of Ligmincha from the mid-7th century at the hands of Srongtsen Gampo to the mid-8th century during the reign of Trisrong De'utsen.
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