To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
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Sādhaka
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pm...to revise the time of assassination of Ligmincha from the mid-7th century at the hands of Srongtsen Gampo to the mid-8th century during the reign of Trisrong De'utsen.

If this is true, then what may be the reason(s) for doing so?
Arura
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Arura »

gelukman wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:46 pm Generally stated it would be unfathomable if Guru Rinpoche, Vairochana and the King would have something against their own doctrines aka
Kuntuzangpo. Yungdrung Bon is very Kuntuzangpo.

But again I would understand if they have something against the shamanistic himalayan religion that have been there for long time.

Yungdrung pon is kunthu Shangpo
vaajraajana is samantabadraa
kuntu shangpo is samantabaadra ?
whai no one neeme?
Arura
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Arura »

is stoorie good or no good fom rimpootjee shaardzaa ?

no good for dorjee good for pon? no good for pon good for dorjee ?
shaardzaa rimpotjee have reanbow boodie veeri meny power, no lie or yes?
Shaardzaa rimpotjee seem bodie as gurruu rimpotjee
Gurruu rimpotjee not lie, yes?
Malcolm
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pm...to revise the time of assassination of Ligmincha from the mid-7th century at the hands of Srongtsen Gampo to the mid-8th century during the reign of Trisrong De'utsen.

If this is true, then what may be the reason(s) for doing so?
It is true, ChNN might have been the first person to point this out, in fact.

As for the reason, its fits better with the Bon narrative of being exiled by Trisrong De'utsen.
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Sādhaka
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Sādhaka »

Okay, then why wouldn’t Bönpo’s just blame Songsten Gampo for the exile, instead of revising the story to it having been Trisong Detsen?

I’m aware that I should know more about these things after all these years; but since it’s being brought up in this thread now....
Passing By
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pm
gelukman wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:46 pm Generally stated it would be unfathomable if Guru Rinpoche, Vairochana and the King would have something against their own doctrines aka
Kuntuzangpo. Yungdrung Bon is very Kuntuzangpo.
In general, these accounts are all from at least three centuries after the stated events. It is very clear that the Bonpos altered their own historical records in the Zhang Zhung Snyan brgyud to revise the time of assassination of Ligmincha from the mid-7th century at the hands of Srongtsen Gampo to the mid-8th century during the reign of Trisrong De'utsen.
I heard it both ways from Bon teachers before actually. The timeline of Bon is obviously quite unclear but there were two wars against Zhang Zhung by both kings with Trisong Deutsan finally completing the annexation of that region no?
gelukman
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by gelukman »

Passing By wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:35 am

I heard it both ways from Bon teachers before actually. The timeline of Bon is obviously quite unclear but there were two wars against Zhang Zhung by both kings with Trisong Deutsan finally completing the annexation of that region no?
Please provide several sources for your claims?
It is not possible. King who were close to Guru Rinpoche would have gone against Bodhisattva vows.

And what were there in Zhang Zhung that required two wars?
So the buddhist monks who pray for world peace started to kill because they found that in some other areas they too prayed for world peace?

Personally I think Yungdrung Bon enlightened lineages vs. other enlightened lineages, setting them up against other are done by extremists. Such extremism can only be born in those who have little learning.And even more important most of these people have left the guidance of spiritual mentors.

If there is no evidence from many sources. Indeed this did happen. It will remain gossip, nonsense

If some one have links. I would love to read!
Malcolm
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:49 pm
gelukman wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:46 pm Generally stated it would be unfathomable if Guru Rinpoche, Vairochana and the King would have something against their own doctrines aka
Kuntuzangpo. Yungdrung Bon is very Kuntuzangpo.
In general, these accounts are all from at least three centuries after the stated events. It is very clear that the Bonpos altered their own historical records in the Zhang Zhung Snyan brgyud to revise the time of assassination of Ligmincha from the mid-7th century at the hands of Srongtsen Gampo to the mid-8th century during the reign of Trisrong De'utsen.
I heard it both ways from Bon teachers before actually. The timeline of Bon is obviously quite unclear but there were two wars against Zhang Zhung by both kings with Trisong Deutsan finally completing the annexation of that region no?
No, According to the Tang chronicles, Zhang Zhung was annexed in 645 AD. There was an uprising against Tibetan rule in 677, but Zhang Zhung was swiftly brought heel.
Passing By
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Passing By »

gelukman wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:32 am
Passing By wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:35 am

I heard it both ways from Bon teachers before actually. The timeline of Bon is obviously quite unclear but there were two wars against Zhang Zhung by both kings with Trisong Deutsan finally completing the annexation of that region no?
Please provide several sources for your claims?
It is not possible. King who were close to Guru Rinpoche would have gone against Bodhisattva vows.

And what were there in Zhang Zhung that required two wars?
So the buddhist monks who pray for world peace started to kill because they found that in some other areas they too prayed for world peace?


If there is no evidence from many sources. Indeed this did happen. It will remain gossip, nonsense

If some one have links. I would love to read!
Tibetan Empire was formed from invasion and conquest of Zhang Zhung kingdom, that much is an actual historical fact. This is neither gossip nor nonsense. Do you think the Tibetan Empire of 600s and 700s is the current Tibet in exile? No, it was one of the largest powers in the world then actually

Trisong Deutsan suppressing Bonpos is also a fact, this is mentioned in Nyingma sources as well. Where it is unclear is whether this Bon also includes Yungdrung Bon. Also, king was still a king. They do king things including executing people and making wars all the time. Especially during those ages. I mean, Trisong Deutsan even managed to strike into the heart of Tang China.

Bonpo sources all say Trisong Deutsan suppressed them and they had to defend themselves via various means, tantric, debate etc to prove themselves legit or otherwise fend off his persecution. It is mentioned in the life stories of Drenpa Namkha, Nangzher Lodpo, Choza Bonmo etc, and that having established the Yungdrung Bon as pure but also to maintain the peace with Indian Buddhism, Drenpa Namkha then became Padmasambhava's disciple

Some Nyingma sources make the distinction between Buddhist Bon and the shamanistic Bon and say the former was established as pure but most don't as far as I can tell.

As for links......For pure history, wiki is a good place to start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Empire)
Personally I think Yungdrung Bon enlightened lineages vs. other enlightened lineages, setting them up against other are done by extremists. Such extremism can only be born in those who have little learning.And even more important most of these people have left the guidance of spiritual mentors.
You should make the distinction between historical fact and doctrine. The suppression by Nyingma is indeed woven throughout Yungdrung Bon literature but whether the literature is 100% accurate historically is another thing entirely. And if you say those stories are written by extremists with little learning....well, they form part of the Nyamgyud transmission so actual practice instructions are contained in them.

Also as I've mentioned before, closely reading the actual stuff does not actually show the Yungdrung Bon writers putting down Nyingma. If anything, they viewed them as a peer and equal even if upset at the historical persecution by the king. You don't see the treatment other Indian traditions get from Buddhists (Tirthikas etc)

If people somehow read it as saying Bon or Nyingma is superior, and/or refusing to acknowledge the historical issues between the two sides that's their own failing.

Also, you should split the dharma from the politics. Virtually every single Indian-influenced king from Tibet down to Indonesia, was a Vajrayana-empowered person at one time in history when Vajrayana was at its height. Priests and kings went hand in hand back in those cultures.
gelukman
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by gelukman »

@Passingby

stories as: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet

or similar bon vs. buddhist.

I have never heard any rinpoche speaking about it (any lineage be it bon or buddhist)

So as it is not beneficial, and totally deranged, so it is commonly believed:
these are the tales of religious extremists aka little learning.

As there are no reliable sources either about these matters.
Passing By
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Re: To account for the cause of this decline in the fortunes of Bön in both Zhang-zhung and Tibet.

Post by Passing By »

Well for one, as I mentioned, you can look at the 24 Masters of Zhang Zhung Nyengyud teachings which mention their hagiographies. Really, just go read it for yourself. It's full of Padmasambhava style tantric magic contests between both sides. There's one source for you.

And from Nyingma, a prominent one is the Barche Lamsel prayer which mentions "destroying those teachings of the Bönpos that conjure evil spirits," there wouldn't be a need for the Rime movement to reestablish ties with Bonpos if Bonpos were widely accepted by the majority of Nyingmapas then.


Of course it's a bit more nuanced than that in meaning like for example, it is generally taken to mean by non-sectarian people that the Bon in Nyingma texts is not Yungdrung Bon, but you asked purely for examples of "Buddhist vs Bon" polemics. Rinpoches (non-sectarian ones at least) don't talk about it because it's destructive obviously but they will mention it if they are quoting from said text, because it's literally written there. They talk about the meaning of the practice though and ignore the past issues



Also I totally get your desire to be non-sectarian but you can't just ignore texts that are vital teachings as well....You may not like the stories in them but they are an important part of the transmission. And besides said Bonpo stories do not actually put down Nyingma, just go see for yourself really. The anti Nyingma side is something blown out of proportion by certain people.

BTW, I'm not talking about the story mentioned in the OP, just so to be clear. That one I have never seen the source before so I don't know. But there are indeed numerous Bon vs Nyingma episodes in the stories presented in the hagiographies found in the personal instructions of various Bon mahasiddhas
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