Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

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karmanyingpo
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Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by karmanyingpo »

Hello all,

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche teaches some tsa lung and trul khor exercises to newcomers in a relatively open way. I have confidence in this teacher and what he is doing and I have heard that these exercises that he teaches are gentle enough to be okay for beginners so I believe that.

However Trungpa Rinpoche in his book Cutting through spiritual materialism says "the practice of some physical yoga exercises which stimulate one's energy could awaken the energies of passion, hatred, pride and other emotions to the extent that one would not know how to express them. The scriptures describe a yogi who is completely intoxicated with his energy as being like a drunken elephant who runs rampant without considering where he is going. "

However since Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's exercises are gentle.. I assume this does not apply as much or at all !

I would like to learn more about this "gentler" category of exercises and how they fit into the greater system of physical yoga in TB and Bon. Are they their own "level" or category? Or a modification of exercises that do have the potential to cause the "Elephant Affect" described by Trungpa Rinpoche? Or?? In short I trust that they are safe because I trust TWR but, just would like to gain more knowledge, on.. how/why they are safe and how they fit into the greater categories of tsa lung and trul khor in TB/Bon..

THX

KN
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Arnoud »

I don't know about TWR's exercises but you would need to practice quite hard core for a while to get intoxicated to the extent that it becomes debilitating.
Honestly, the hardcore exercises are hard to do when you are not quite flexible. Jumping into lotus and landing on your butt is not something most people can do. But, doing the gentler stretches in combination with breath will definitely bring benefit.

Hope that helps a little.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

karmanyingpo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:17 pm

I would like to learn more about this "gentler" category of exercises and how they fit into the greater system of physical yoga in TB and Bon. Are they their own "level" or category? Or a modification of exercises that do have the potential to cause the "Elephant Affect" described by Trungpa Rinpoche? Or?? In short I trust that they are safe because I trust TWR but, just would like to gain more knowledge, on.. how/why they are safe and how they fit into the greater categories of tsa lung and trul khor in TB/Bon..

THX

KN
I think it's just partially about general vs. specific. I mean, there are methods that will give you an insane burst of energy, methods to transform sexual energy, etc. The thing is, if you are not prepared for that they go off the rails.

So, this kind of practice is a practice for...general "health"...health here meaning a lot more than simply a state of physical well being.

I would contrast this with -some- schools of Kundalini yoga, some modern methods etc. that will quickly produce a huge amount of energy, then put you in danger of weird effects because the "container" of the energy is not set up properly.

There's also something to be said for warnings like Trungpa's being a bit hyperbolic, frankly.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Matt J »

I wouldn't assume anything, personally. It likely depends on the specific make up of the individual--- physical health, mental health, karma, etc. I've had some fairly intense experiences from some fairly "gentle" practices in the past.

I do note that Ligmincha often has courses on this, including one at the end of the month.

https://ligmincha.org/
karmanyingpo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:17 pm However since Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's exercises are gentle.. I assume this does not apply as much or at all !
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by climb-up »

I am no expert, but I have learned TWR's tsa lung practice as well as physical practices of ChNN and of the Yuthok Nyingthig and while there are more acrobatic and difficult movements in some areas, the base practices that I have learned are very comparable.

I think the main danger has to do things like intense vase breathing and tummo. This should not be practiced without guidance, but in regards to the gentle movements it's important to be aware of the effects they have on your rlung and whether or not it is getting agitated.

There is a WONDERFUL book on Nejang by Dr Nida that gives a practice that is similar in some ways to TWR's practice, and talks a little about the history of the practice. For example; even though it is originally from the kalachakra tantra as a preliminary for more intense practices there is a long history in Tibet of Tibetan doctors teaching it to their patients.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Tata1 »

Matt J wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:37 pm I wouldn't assume anything, personally. It likely depends on the specific make up of the individual--- physical health, mental health, karma, etc. I've had some fairly intense experiences from some fairly "gentle" practices in the past.

https://ligmincha.org/
karmanyingpo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:17 pm However since Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's exercises are gentle.. I assume this does not apply as much or at all !
But then again, same thing can happen with something as "simple" as shamata.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Matt J »

Tsa Lung is a bit more "accident prone" than shamatha from what I've been told.
Tata1 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:36 am But then again, same thing can happen with something as "simple" as shamata.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by karmanyingpo »

Thanks for sharing your perspectives, everyone.

KN
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by DawnLhamo »

Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

DawnLhamo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:51 pm Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
No idea on a technical level, but how you breathe makes a huge difference. Particularly with these exercises as there is a mild retention and "double inhale" thing. In my personal experience if you force practice that involve any kind of hold the effect can be weird. I learned these in person with TWR and I'm kind of glad I did, because I think it would be easy to overdo the holding. I was actually surprised that a "beginner' practice involved holds, though not really explicitly taught, that I remember. If I were you, I would directly ask a Ligmincha person.

I'd also highly recommend the BreAthe DvD by Fabio Andrico as an accompaniment if you have no direct access to someone who can help work through such things. The basic advice given on breathing in it helped me to more deeply understand and correct imbalances with every other breath practice I've learned, including the Qigong I've been doing since I was a kid.

I am not an expert whatsoever, but I have been doing pranayama/breathwork of some kind for most of my life at this point, in my experience one of the biggest factors in getting a positive effect from these practices is never to force anything and pay very close attention to your energetic reaction to doing them. That, and of course the more time and direct correction you can get from a teacher, the better.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:43 pm
DawnLhamo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:51 pm Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
No idea on a technical level, but how you breathe makes a huge difference. Particularly with these exercises as there is a mild retention and "double inhale" thing. In my personal experience if you force practice that involve any kind of hold the effect can be weird. I learned these in person with TWR and I'm kind of glad I did, because I think it would be easy to overdo the holding. I was actually surprised that a "beginner' practice involved holds, though not really explicitly taught, that I remember. If I were you, I would directly ask a Ligmincha person.

I'd also highly recommend the BreAthe DvD by Fabio Andrico as an accompaniment if you have no direct access to someone who can help work through such things. The basic advice given on breathing in it helped me to more deeply understand and correct imbalances with every other breath practice I've learned, including the Qigong I've been doing since I was a kid.

I am not an expert whatsoever, but I have been doing pranayama/breathwork of some kind for most of my life at this point, in my experience one of the biggest factors in getting a positive effect from these practices is never to force anything and pay very close attention to your energetic reaction to doing them. That, and of course the more time and direct correction you can get from a teacher, the better.
I second the breath dvd or course recommendation (there is also a book). It really its a boost and a balance to my tsa lung and trulkhor practice. Specially as a beginner that i am.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

DawnLhamo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:51 pm Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
When it comes to lung a proper diet can go a long way. I think doing pranayama on an empty stomach while fasting can be a bad idea as being hungry can lead to easier development of lung disorder. I for example avoid meditating when hungry, especially when counting mantras. It is easy to get carried away. I imagine it as me not being grounded by my food and easily gettign blown away by wind.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by climb-up »

DawnLhamo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:51 pm Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
Check with a doctor of Tibetan medicine.
Depending on your body type I think it’s possible that tsa lung after fasting might be particularly contraindicated, and even if not that’s definitely something to watch out for.
Lots of sleep, warming baths, warm broth, hormé and rlung-pacifying medicine (taken as prescribed) are basic helpful remedies.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Oh and BTW with regard to tghe OP's quesiton:

When I learned the Tsa Lung I am 99.9% sure we talked about it coming from the Bon mother Tantra (I think we got a bonk too), and that in Bon terms it is a Tantric practice roughly on the level of annutara yoga.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by karmanyingpo »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:08 am Oh and BTW with regard to tghe OP's quesiton:

When I learned the Tsa Lung I am 99.9% sure we talked about it coming from the Bon mother Tantra (I think we got a bonk too), and that in Bon terms it is a Tantric practice roughly on the level of annutara yoga.
I have heard Mother Tantra before and it is good to have further context on what that means
Thanks Johnny would you care to explain other correspondences between the levels of Buddhist tantra and Bon tantra? I would love to learn more about this.

KN
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

karmanyingpo wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:41 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:08 am Oh and BTW with regard to tghe OP's quesiton:

When I learned the Tsa Lung I am 99.9% sure we talked about it coming from the Bon mother Tantra (I think we got a bonk too), and that in Bon terms it is a Tantric practice roughly on the level of annutara yoga.
I have heard Mother Tantra before and it is good to have further context on what that means
Thanks Johnny would you care to explain other correspondences between the levels of Buddhist tantra and Bon tantra? I would love to learn more about this.

KN
I don't know that much about it. Bonpo tend to claim that Dzogchen is somehow more integrated throughout all their Nine Ways than it is in Vajrayana , no idea if that's really true, nor what it would mean if it was. I will say that when I learned it while it was a "tantric" practice, eventually the explanations came back to Dzogchen.

AFAIK practices working with channel, chakra, etc. are annutara level practices in Vajrayana terms. I don't know if Bon even uses the same classification with Tantra as Varjayana though, I got the impression they do not. I remember it being brought up and something like this being the conclusion of the discussion, but it was a while back and I'm sure my memory is not reliable.

I am sure there are members on this site who know enough of the workings of Bon teachings to answer this.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Dharmaswede »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:43 pm
I am not an expert whatsoever, but I have been doing pranayama/breathwork of some kind for most of my life at this point, in my experience one of the biggest factors in getting a positive effect from these practices is never to force anything and pay very close attention to your energetic reaction to doing them. That, and of course the more time and direct correction you can get from a teacher, the better.
This is excellent advice.

Some additional bodywork, such balanced yoga (not hardcore styles or approaches), tai-chi etc. will facilitate the movement of the energies, support a healthier body, and develop better body-mind connection. That will both prevent and ease lung.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by Passing By »

karmanyingpo wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:41 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:08 am Oh and BTW with regard to tghe OP's quesiton:

When I learned the Tsa Lung I am 99.9% sure we talked about it coming from the Bon mother Tantra (I think we got a bonk too), and that in Bon terms it is a Tantric practice roughly on the level of annutara yoga.
I have heard Mother Tantra before and it is good to have further context on what that means
Thanks Johnny would you care to explain other correspondences between the levels of Buddhist tantra and Bon tantra? I would love to learn more about this.

KN
It's one of the Bon Tantric (ie Vajrayana other than their commonly defined Dzogchen) lineages. But of course the Ma Gyud Tsa Lung is used to help with Dzogchen meditation and other things
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by DawnLhamo »

For those "windy" among us: I now refrain from doing any "upward moving/pushing" winds like phowa or the third of the 9 breaths- and with the Tsa Lung, I can safely perform the movements without breath retention, just holding with a very gentle kumbhaka, that seems to work well. These practices are exceedingly powerful, even Tenzin Rinpoche's instruction- nuclear- for some and and for sure, blow out your nervous system, especially if you have a lot of rlung already.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:43 pm
DawnLhamo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:51 pm Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
No idea on a technical level, but how you breathe makes a huge difference. Particularly with these exercises as there is a mild retention and "double inhale" thing. In my personal experience if you force practice that involve any kind of hold the effect can be weird. I learned these in person with TWR and I'm kind of glad I did, because I think it would be easy to overdo the holding. I was actually surprised that a "beginner' practice involved holds, though not really explicitly taught, that I remember. If I were you, I would directly ask a Ligmincha person.

I'd also highly recommend the BreAthe DvD by Fabio Andrico as an accompaniment if you have no direct access to someone who can help work through such things. The basic advice given on breathing in it helped me to more deeply understand and correct imbalances with every other breath practice I've learned, including the Qigong I've been doing since I was a kid.

I am not an expert whatsoever, but I have been doing pranayama/breathwork of some kind for most of my life at this point, in my experience one of the biggest factors in getting a positive effect from these practices is never to force anything and pay very close attention to your energetic reaction to doing them. That, and of course the more time and direct correction you can get from a teacher, the better.
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Re: Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's Tsa Lung and Trul Khor

Post by karmanyingpo »

DawnLhamo wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:04 pm For those "windy" among us: I now refrain from doing any "upward moving/pushing" winds like phowa or the third of the 9 breaths- and with the Tsa Lung, I can safely perform the movements without breath retention, just holding with a very gentle kumbhaka, that seems to work well. These practices are exceedingly powerful, even Tenzin Rinpoche's instruction- nuclear- for some and and for sure, blow out your nervous system, especially if you have a lot of rlung already.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:43 pm
DawnLhamo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:51 pm Hi folks, I was doing these practices on retreat after fasting and I developed a pretty severe wind disorder with which it took me a lot of effort to recover from- has anybody ever had this happen and any ideas of how to correct it and why happens?
No idea on a technical level, but how you breathe makes a huge difference. Particularly with these exercises as there is a mild retention and "double inhale" thing. In my personal experience if you force practice that involve any kind of hold the effect can be weird. I learned these in person with TWR and I'm kind of glad I did, because I think it would be easy to overdo the holding. I was actually surprised that a "beginner' practice involved holds, though not really explicitly taught, that I remember. If I were you, I would directly ask a Ligmincha person.

I'd also highly recommend the BreAthe DvD by Fabio Andrico as an accompaniment if you have no direct access to someone who can help work through such things. The basic advice given on breathing in it helped me to more deeply understand and correct imbalances with every other breath practice I've learned, including the Qigong I've been doing since I was a kid.

I am not an expert whatsoever, but I have been doing pranayama/breathwork of some kind for most of my life at this point, in my experience one of the biggest factors in getting a positive effect from these practices is never to force anything and pay very close attention to your energetic reaction to doing them. That, and of course the more time and direct correction you can get from a teacher, the better.
Wow, thanks for sharing

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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