Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
tatpurusa
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by tatpurusa »

spaces:

while it is true that one has to proof and judge one's affinity to a teacher before asking him to accept one as his disciple,
setting criteria based on concepts like being vegetarian vs. meat-eater ; celibate vs. non-celibate ; drinking alcohol vs. non-drinker etc.
is a very unwise decision. These are simply prejudices based on one's attachment to one's own conditioning and not the proper way
to proof the authenticity of a real Dzogchen master.

Maybe these criteria could serve in order to choose a sutric teacher, I don't know.

For Dzogchen it is necessary to get beyond our conditioning, attachment, concepts.
Someone who is not ready to let go of all that is not prepared for this kind of teaching and practice.
Sorry, but your attitude seems to me like wanting to get rid of alcohol addiction by drinking more alcohol.

tp.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by kalden yungdrung »

spaces wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:46 am Tashi delek.


To Mr. Mutsuk and Mr. kalden yungdrung:

How can I find Tenzin Lopon Namdak? Does he teach westerners? Simply, what should I do if want to become his student? I read his books. His style of teaching impressed me immensely. But he is old. Of course, we all don't know how long we will live, but If it's still possible to study under him, I am willing to do anything it takes.
Tashi delek S,


Lopon La just left Shenten Dargye Ling in France, guess it was his last teaching outside his residence Triten Norbutse Monastery in Kathmandu / Nepal. Lopon La is sometimes very exhausted and looks tired.

It is very good from you that you want to be connected to the Zhang Zhung Dzogchen cycle of teachings, to which Lopon La is strongly connected as well other Bön Dzogchen Lineages.

If you like to meet the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche then you have to be fast. You can make an appointment with Lopon La in Triten Norbutse Monastery / Kathmandu.

But am not sure if you can receive teachings of him, because Rinpoche ,normally gives it in a group with minimal 9 persons.

If a teaching is not possible you can ask Rinpoche some questions, that is possible.
In case you cannot get teachings from Lopon La then i advise you to go to Menri Monastery where the Menri Ponlop Rinpoche is staying.

The Menri Ponlop Rinpoche is well informed / educated about all Dzogchen Lineages and you could ask him for teachings, but also here the custom is to get teachings in a group.
In Menri Monastery you can chose your teacher and visit this teacher on a regular base to get your teachings realised. They have there also good housing facilities as well a Tibetan Medicine Centre.

All in all you can make a try to get teachings from Lopon La, but what i know is that the Dzogchenpas visit Rinpoche to get their questions answered in relation to the received teachings of Lopon La.

Hope so for you that you can have teachings of Lopon La, maybe you can get the direct introduction to your Natural State from Lopon La, ask for this.

Another option would be to read some books of Lopon la, study them and ask other Dzogchenpas about some questions you have. In the meanwhile you search for the live teachings of the studied text.

Nowadays many Bön Geshes can give Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Dzogchen Cycle of Teachings , which they received mostly from Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.

So don´t you worry about these ZZNG teachings they are nearly yearly everywhere available.


Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
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spaces
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by spaces »

Your answers were very informative, thank you.
I don't think that those of you who say my attitude is wrong are absolutely wrong about that - you are as right about that as I am wrong about it, conventionally.

Yet, I am stubborn and maybe stupid - I'll stick to my projections for a while. Thanks and have a Happy New Year (late wishes, but nevertheless).
spaces
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by spaces »

And more seriously:
We all have those projections as part of our life. Why we use toilets instead of more "natural" behavior? Even Dzogchen masters use toilets.
The point here is that it's not about abandoning our projections, but seeing their illusory nature. From the absolute point of view, being vegetarian, vegan etc. is so unimportant as using toilet or not. But conventionally it is, sometimes, for someone, in some situation beneficial. Again, I am not to judge anyone.
Even compassion as relative bodhicitta is relative. It's a concept, albeit conventionally beneficial. And just somebody uses concepts to finish them, somebody can progress by advancing his relative bodhicitta to absolute one - even in abandoning meat eating.
And to all of you who say that it doesn't matter if master eats meat of other beings or not, it's prejudice - would you be so brave to really face a master who would eat your flesh or flesh of your mother as a custom? Or would you happily forgo about this kind of Buddhism? After all, it's only projections isn't it?
Malcolm
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by Malcolm »

spaces wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:46 am

To Mr. Malcom:
That Buddha did not teach diet as a path of liberation is highly debatable. At least in "Food for Bodhisattvas" by Shakbar you can many citations, even by (that is academically debatable) Buddha Shakyamuni. E.g. Lankavatara Sutra (version with additional chapter). Even in Hinayana texts he obviously mentions that food should be pure in three ways. So, although is definitely not vegetarianism, he DID in fact teach some diet restriction and understood food restrictions as part of the path.
It is not even slightly debatable.

Why? If it were the case that diet was a factor in liberation, no one who ate meat would ever have attained liberation, let alone buddhahood, including the Buddha. Since many meat eaters have indeed attained liberation and even buddhahood, it is quite clear that the Buddhist path to liberation has nothing to do with what kind of food one puts in one's mouth.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by kalden yungdrung »

spaces wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:06 pm And more seriously:
We all have those projections as part of our life. Why we use toilets instead of more "natural" behavior? Even Dzogchen masters use toilets.
The point here is that it's not about abandoning our projections, but seeing their illusory nature. From the absolute point of view, being vegetarian, vegan etc. is so unimportant as using toilet or not. But conventionally it is, sometimes, for someone, in some situation beneficial. Again, I am not to judge anyone.
Even compassion as relative bodhicitta is relative. It's a concept, albeit conventionally beneficial. And just somebody uses concepts to finish them, somebody can progress by advancing his relative bodhicitta to absolute one - even in abandoning meat eating.
And to all of you who say that it doesn't matter if master eats meat of other beings or not, it's prejudice - would you be so brave to really face a master who would eat your flesh or flesh of your mother as a custom? Or would you happily forgo about this kind of Buddhism? After all, it's only projections isn't it?
Tashi delek S,

See that to be a vegetarian is important to you. Yes it is ok to be vegetarian out of Compassion, no doubt about it. But Mind is not feeded by meat but with realization.
So it really does not matter if for instance Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche eats meat or not. For me this is on the third place, first comes his clear explanations about what is Mind etc. based on his personal experience , related to the authentic texts.

If it is your Master then you never question his diet, does not the matter if he eats corpses or tofu.
There are Yogis who dwell on cemeteries where they eat the corpses or left overs. If it is your teacher , the yogi could have eaten the corpse of your mom, then the Master cannot be seen as bad etc.


Also a late but happy new year !
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by Grigoris »

If this conversation goes in the direction of debate about the merits of vegetarianism/veganism I will shut it down and point people in the direction of this 224 page thread to continue the debate.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:39 pm If this conversation goes in the direction of debate about the merits of vegetarianism/veganism I will shut it down and point people in the direction of this 224 page thread to continue the debate.
good call...
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heart
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by heart »

spaces wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:46 am To Mr. heart:

There are vegetarian Dzogchen masters, unfortunately most of them live in countries unaccessible to me. To want to study with this or that master is actually foundation of vajrayana - we want to study with a root master we have special karmic connection with, many are there accounts of teachers sending their students to another teachers because of that karmic link. So, that is an important matter even in Vajrayana. Now this initiative can and often comes from a student as well - there is no reason to deny that a particular student may have desire to study with vegetarian master because of his karma and it could, at least theoretically, be of beneficial foundation.
From experience I can tell you that "special karmic connection" have nothing to do with sharing a diet or an opinion with your master. Anyway, you really have to travel if you are serious about Dzogchen.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
tatpurusa
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by tatpurusa »

spaces:

Be careful and try not to limit yourself!

It could happen that your real master you have an important karmic connection with will
out of compassion manifest himself to you as a meat eater in order to help you lose that
attachment to those concepts ... and you won't even be able to recognize him because
of this voluntary prejudicial auto-limitation .. ;)

tp.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by kalden yungdrung »

To Mr. Spaces

Have a good trip in searching for your Master.
You have a good motivation and that is gold
You will for sure get some emancipation in the ZZNG Lineage, because you will be a member of that, then the blessings will rain on you.

See that you have that certain karma to get emancipated, you are motivated too.
Also your level of understanding is not bad for the beginning.

Wish you many success with your future Dzogchen Master and if it would be the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, then you are lucky.

Like Mutsuk wrote, Lopon La is at the moment a vegetarian . whereas before he was eating meat......
So this is then for you the best option i guess so.

Wish you success on your trip to Triten Norbutse Monastery and do not forget to give Lopon La my best wishes for him.


Mutsuk Marro
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Adamantine
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by Adamantine »

spaces wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:06 pm And more seriously:
We all have those projections as part of our life. Why we use toilets instead of more "natural" behavior? Even Dzogchen masters use toilets.
The point here is that it's not about abandoning our projections, but seeing their illusory nature. From the absolute point of view, being vegetarian, vegan etc. is so unimportant as using toilet or not. But conventionally it is, sometimes, for someone, in some situation beneficial. Again, I am not to judge anyone.
Even compassion as relative bodhicitta is relative. It's a concept, albeit conventionally beneficial. And just somebody uses concepts to finish them, somebody can progress by advancing his relative bodhicitta to absolute one - even in abandoning meat eating.
And to all of you who say that it doesn't matter if master eats meat of other beings or not, it's prejudice - would you be so brave to really face a master who would eat your flesh or flesh of your mother as a custom? Or would you happily forgo about this kind of Buddhism? After all, it's only projections isn't it?
Hi Spaces, there are a number of Buddhist masters who are vegetarians. One of the greatest Dzogchen masters of our time,
Kyabje Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche who passed away just a few years ago, was a very strict and adamant vegetarian. Many of his close disciples are likewise, including his heart disciple and daughter Semo Saraswati who resides in Nepal.

Another great vegetarian (I believe vegan) Dzogchen master is Tulku Pema Wangyal Rinpoche, who lives in Dordogne France. He heads a three year retreat there that was established by Dudjom Rinpoche and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. He also travels to teach, although he doesn’t really publicize afaik.

So please don’t be discouraged by those here who try to convince you that having conviction in a vegetarian diet and Buddhadharma or Dzogchen are incompatible.

There’s good resources including reference to other Lamas on this site http://www.shabkar.org/index.htm

All just said, it’s important to focus any dietary convictions and conduct on oneself, not others.. try to have a flexible mind and don’t judge other’s choices.

Wishing you a profound connection with a magnificent wisdom Lama. 🙏
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Adamantine wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:04 pm
spaces wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:06 pm And more seriously:
We all have those projections as part of our life. Why we use toilets instead of more "natural" behavior? Even Dzogchen masters use toilets.
The point here is that it's not about abandoning our projections, but seeing their illusory nature. From the absolute point of view, being vegetarian, vegan etc. is so unimportant as using toilet or not. But conventionally it is, sometimes, for someone, in some situation beneficial. Again, I am not to judge anyone.
Even compassion as relative bodhicitta is relative. It's a concept, albeit conventionally beneficial. And just somebody uses concepts to finish them, somebody can progress by advancing his relative bodhicitta to absolute one - even in abandoning meat eating.
And to all of you who say that it doesn't matter if master eats meat of other beings or not, it's prejudice - would you be so brave to really face a master who would eat your flesh or flesh of your mother as a custom? Or would you happily forgo about this kind of Buddhism? After all, it's only projections isn't it?
Hi Spaces, there are a number of Buddhist masters who are vegetarians. One of the greatest Dzogchen masters of our time,
Kyabje Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche who passed away just a few years ago, was a very strict and adamant vegetarian. Many of his close disciples are likewise, including his heart disciple and daughter Semo Saraswati who resides in Nepal.

Another great vegetarian (I believe vegan) Dzogchen master is Tulku Pema Wangyal Rinpoche, who lives in Dordogne France. He heads a three year retreat there that was established by Dudjom Rinpoche and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. He also travels to teach, although he doesn’t really publicize afaik.

So please don’t be discouraged by those here who try to convince you that having conviction in a vegetarian diet and Buddhadharma or Dzogchen are incompatible.

There’s good resources including reference to other Lamas on this site http://www.shabkar.org/index.htm

All just said, it’s important to focus any dietary convictions and conduct on oneself, not others.. try to have a flexible mind and don’t judge other’s choices.

Wishing you a profound connection with a magnificent wisdom Lama. 🙏

:good:
Agree to your point of view.
The best meditation is no meditation
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Sādhaka
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Re: Are Bonpos vegetarian?

Post by Sādhaka »

On Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche’s position, from The Faults of Meat: Tibetan Writings on Vegetarianism edited by Geoffrey Barstow:



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72430484-87F4-4E4C-A857-74ADC165836A.jpeg (148.73 KiB) Viewed 1765 times


Emphasis on the last five lines in the second attachment^.
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