Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Ode to Joy
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Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ode to Joy »

Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology? Given that they believe in all other aspects of the Buddhadharma. It makes no sense.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Jesse »

Because Buddhist cosmology represents what 'scientists' in ancient times believed the universe to look like with their limited knowledge.

Buddhist philosophers usually also engaged in whatever form of science their culture had at the time. Religions and science were usually integrated back then. Christianity had something similar, and there are people today who still fervently believe in a flat earth..

Nobody with any scientific knowledge really believes this is the case though.

We have telescopes that can investigate the actual structure of the universe, why disregard progress in favor of centuries old theories?
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

It's too different, and people don't know what they don't know.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I was once acquainted with a lama who had been raised in Tibet, and on one summer evening we met an astronomer working for the (U.S) park service had a very telescope set up at the parking lot which led to trails on a mountain in upstate New York. On this particular night, there was a spectacular view of Saturn, visible through this cylinder which was about a foot wide and 3 or for feet long, balanced at an angle on a tripod, with an eyepiece extending upwards from the lower end. The host mentioned that Saturn has seven moons.
“Really!” Remarked the lama, who paused and then asked, “how many moons goes the Earth have?”
“Just one.” The astronomer replied.
“Oh, yes…yes…I see. I see.”
“We see it because it reflects the light from the Sun.”
“Really! …I see…” the lama answered, surprised to learn that the moon doesn’t produce its own light (I’m not sure if he understood the moon wasn’t really a ‘disc’ as it appears in visualization practice).

Although he seemed a bit perplexed, as the night went on, the lama was very eager to learn all sorts of new things he’d never been taught growing up in a monastery.

As lovely as Buddhist cosmology is, with the universe having directions like East and West for example, and as useful as Buddhist astrology might be for offering a unified theory of everything, it all pales compared to even the limited scientific knowledge we have of the known universe so far.

Sorry, I know that’s going to piss some folks off.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Ode to Joy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:47 am Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology? Given that they believe in all other aspects of the Buddhadharma. It makes no sense.
Book 1 of Kongtrul's "Treasury of Knowledge" is about cosmology. It starts with Mt. Meru paradigm, then proceeds through Kalachakra, and ends up with a Dzogchen (monism) paradigm. Most people that participate here on DW give Dzogchen a lot of credibility.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Archie2009 »

Short answer, I do not reject modern cosmology because I'm not daft.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm »

Ode to Joy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:47 am Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?
There are two basic Buddhist cosmologies: Hinayāna and Mahāyāna. Which one do you mean?
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:20 pm and ends up with a Dzogchen (monism) paradigm.
Most misunderstood part of that book. Dzogchen cosmogony is not monistic at all. It is just Abhidharmakośa cosmogony.

Stay in yer lane, bub. :rules:
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by nyonchung »

Ode to Joy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:47 am Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology? Given that they believe in all other aspects of the Buddhadharma. It makes no sense.
Buddhism is not exactly a question a belief.

To people making objections on the world description (Meru, etc.), the present Tai Situ incarnation remarked that the main goal of the Buddha was not to be a geography teacher.
HH the Dalai Lama made interseting comments on this.
The late Kalu Rinpoché remarked that Tibet had an extremely poor record in terms of worldy knoweldge, and that the West had a complete supremacy in science, technical knowledge etc ... and that this was (we're in late 70's) going to a recurrent problem for Western students.
If I remember well, Lodrö Thayé mentions at the beginning of the Shes bya mdzod (Compedium of Knowledge) that there is no limits (no end) to the possibilities of worldly knowlege (what we call science), but Buddharma was not exactly about that.

You can have an interesting example with the Chinese monk Yixing (683-727) who mesured the meridian between Lake Baikal and Tonkin (the North of present day Vietnam), quite a scientific feat for that time
But he was also a tantric practioner and the 6th patriarch of Shingôn
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Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Aemilius »

Ode to Joy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:47 am Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology? Given that they believe in all other aspects of the Buddhadharma. It makes no sense.
Buddhist Cosmology is a map of the Three realms. Other maps are used when you go to London, New York, Paris, etc., you can see what these places are like, how these they correspond to the map. In Buddhism it has happened that people, who get to see the places like Indras Palace or continents in other world systems, are usually cowherds or people with no power in the religious hierarchy. Then the Buddhist hierarchy doesn't really know what these places in the map are like, and so the map becomes an item of ritual worship, or a symbol far removed from real experience.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Giovanni »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:00 am
Ode to Joy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:47 am Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology? Given that they believe in all other aspects of the Buddhadharma. It makes no sense.
Buddhist Cosmology is a map of the Three realms. Other maps are used when you go to London, New York, Paris, etc., you can see what these places are like, how these they correspond to the map. In Buddhism it has happened that people, who get to see the places like Indras Palace or continents in other world systems, are usually cowherds or people with no power in the religious hierarchy. Then the Buddhist hierarchy doesn't really know what these places in the map are like, and so the map becomes an item of ritual worship, or a symbol far removed from real experience.
The “Buddhist heirachy” does not know what these places are like…but you do?
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by TannersHatch »

Going out on a limb here...

I totally believe in Buddhist cosmology. I believe that the form in which things take shape may be more specific to the individual however. Such realms could be compared to certain states experienced by shamans and folks such as John Lilly, Timothy Leary, Terrance Mkenna and related to Religious cosmology most beautifully in works such as 'The Joyous Cosmology' by Alan w. Watts. (Although chemically assisted explorations are not being endorsed here).
I imagine when your environment is entirely shaped by your thoughts feelings and mental state, such as might occur in a dream, these bardo states and realms could be akin to the environment shaped by a particular mental state, object or focus. In the existence beyond physical form these states could be experienced as many kalpas. This is another experience akin to those who have under altered states have described what psychology might refer to as 'the desintergration of the ego'.

The book of the dead text which is read to the being after death could be thought of as talking someone through a bad dream or 'trip'. And in a negative hallucinatory experience, realising the manifestations are just that and 'going beyond them' is the best advice you could receive in my humble opinion.

I want it read to me on passing, the fact that what I'm experiencing is an illusion is not something I wish to be unaware of at the time.

So...yep. that's why I totally buy into it.
Last edited by TannersHatch on Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by nyonchung »

Giovanni wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:26 am
Aemilius wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:00 am
Ode to Joy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:47 am Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology? Given that they believe in all other aspects of the Buddhadharma. It makes no sense.
Buddhist Cosmology is a map of the Three realms. Other maps are used when you go to London, New York, Paris, etc., you can see what these places are like, how these they correspond to the map. In Buddhism it has happened that people, who get to see the places like Indras Palace or continents in other world systems, are usually cowherds or people with no power in the religious hierarchy. Then the Buddhist hierarchy doesn't really know what these places in the map are like, and so the map becomes an item of ritual worship, or a symbol far removed from real experience.
The “Buddhist heirachy” does not know what these places are like…but you do?
Further, as far as I now, the Buddha himself ascended to Amaravati, Indra's palace, and descended back by a jewelled staircase, not a cowherd
As for the Meru, four or seven continents etc ... there were taken as as mapping this world.
I think by the 10th century Indian travellers and seafarers had since long ceased to take it litteraly, nbot to mention (and before) Indian astronoms and mathematicians
For all practical purposes, Chinese had their own world representation, but it evolved through centuries and developed an effective mapping system.
Later they easily adopted Western mapping techniques and scientific imputs - the Emperors who promoted this were at the same time great sponsors of Buddhism (and, in the case of Qianlong, even had a pretty good understanding of Tibetan Buddhism)

See for instance:
https://www.academia.edu/22217373/TIBET ... K_IN_TIBET
The problem I have with this interseting piece is the "Tibet" insistance is that the author was a Mongol (writing in Tibetan), and was educated in Beijing in contact with foreigners (Russians) and is in many ways typical of the specific intellectual / official scene in Beijing, since long aware of Western innovations (through the Jesuits and trade with Russia)
This kind of cosmopolitism or modernism was certainly not the trend in the highly conservative in Lhasa's main monasteries or governement circles...
This text was probably almost unknown in Central Tibet
The basic text's translation by Turrell Wylie is The Geography of Tibet According to the ’Dzam-gling-rgyas-bshad. - Serie Orientale Roma XXV, Roma, ISMEO, 1962
available
https://saintlukebc.org/book/the-geogra ... gyas-bshad

regarding the "highly conservative ... " see that polemic piece by Jamyang Norbu (not always my cup of tea) put he puts a few things in context and mentions efforts by HHDL (not an easy task)
https://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2019/ ... ignorance/
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm »

TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:45 pm Going out on a limb here...
And sawing the branch off behind you.
The book of the dead text which is read to the being after death could be thought of as talking someone through a bad dream or 'trip'.
No. It has no function at all for someone who has not received the empowerment of the peaceful and wrathful deities and done some of its practice in this life.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:57 pm
TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:45 pm Going out on a limb here...
And sawing the branch off behind you.
The book of the dead text which is read to the being after death could be thought of as talking someone through a bad dream or 'trip'.
No. It has no function at all for someone who has not received the empowerment of the peaceful and wrathful deities and done some of its practice in this life.
Still fantastic that after some 50 years of Tibetan Buddhism in the West such basics have to be reminded ...
One conservative Sakya lama once (a bit before 1980?) told to his French students who read the french version of Evans-Wentz translation of the Thödröl: you will never see such things, you need empowerments etc ... as for Bardo, if you were an office worker, you may first experiment something like being at your desk, but will experiment things becoming awry, familiar objects becoming agressive, like drawers opening and attacking you, weird appearances making you afraid and wishing to flee anywhere
About other worlds and aliens, told them that for sure, so many other worlds, but people there not like you, very happy to stay where they are and not always thinking to go to other places :alien:
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by TannersHatch »

nyonchung wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:57 pm
TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:45 pm Going out on a limb here...
And sawing the branch off behind you.
It's only my ego which risks the fall, I'm not imagining myself as a sage or scholar. I just find that being over protective of how my replies might appear to others and trying to playing the 'cow counting' game (a game in which I would assuredly lose) gets in the way somewhat, of open discussion. Just my way is all. Thank you for your ongoing patience with me.
The book of the dead text which is read to the being after death could be thought of as talking someone through a bad dream or 'trip'.

No. It has no function at all for someone who has not received the empowerment of the peaceful and wrathful deities and done some of its practice in this life.
[/quote]

How can you be sure of this please? Is this belief based on personal experience or is it an act of faith on your part? Perhaps it could be of some use regardless? It appears to just describe experience after death and offer advice for meditating during that and by doing so passing to a realm such as the realm of bliss? Or so in my limited understanding it seemed to me.
Also if these experiences were possible do you think that would be readily available information. For a student to hear such a thing and start chasing mystical experience instead of enlightenment could be damaging to say the least? There's a few examples of a teacher protection students from information which although possibly true could be harmful isn't there? I'm no expert so I'm just talking here...

Still fantastic that after some 50 years of Tibetan Buddhism in the West such basics have to be reminded ...
One conservative Sakya lama once (a bit before 1980?) told to his French students who read the french version of Evans-Wentz translation of the Thödröl: you will never see such things, you need empowerments etc ... as for Bardo, if you were an office worker, you may first experiment something like being at your desk, but will experiment things becoming awry, familiar objects becoming agressive, like drawers opening and attacking you, weird appearances making you afraid and wishing to flee anywhere
About other worlds and aliens, told them that for sure, so many other worlds, but people there not like you, very happy to stay where they are and not always thinking to go to other places :alien:
Hehe, wasn't stating fact chaps just expressing a comparison and personal perspective is all. I apologise for my lack of knowledge on the subject, although I don't think these ideas are exclusive to Buddhism are they? Just the way they are described?
Last edited by TannersHatch on Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Berry »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:57 pm
TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:45 pm Going out on a limb here...
And sawing the branch off behind you.
The book of the dead text which is read to the being after death could be thought of as talking someone through a bad dream or 'trip'.
No. It has no function at all for someone who has not received the empowerment of the peaceful and wrathful deities and done some of its practice in this life.
Well said, Malcolm.

As well as having the relevant empowerments, ideally the practitioner should be taught about the different stages of the Bardo and the relevant practices by an accomplished Vajrayana teacher. This isn't something for newcomers which can be compared to mundane activities like tripping on drugs, or to videos of people babbling on YouTube.
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

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TannersHatch
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by TannersHatch »

Berry wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:57 pm
TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:45 pm Going out on a limb here...
And sawing the branch off behind you.
The book of the dead text which is read to the being after death could be thought of as talking someone through a bad dream or 'trip'.
No. It has no function at all for someone who has not received the empowerment of the peaceful and wrathful deities and done some of its practice in this life.
Well said, Malcolm.

As well as having the relevant empowerments, ideally the practitioner should be taught about the different stages of the Bardo and the relevant practices by an accomplished Vajrayana teacher. This isn't something for newcomers which can be compared to mundane activities like tripping on drugs, or to videos of people babbling on YouTube.
Your right of course chaps. Although incomparable? I didn't realise this subject was beyond the realms of comparison? But oh well, perhaps I should respectfully bow out at this point. I obviously am totally out of my depth and labouring under a delusion of some sort as my perspective must be all askew. I hadn't realised my views would be so controversial 🙂 apologies for any offence I may have inadvertently caused you with my ill conceived comments.
Thank you to all you wise gentleman for drawing my attention to this. I shall just have to correct my view perhaps...
Last edited by TannersHatch on Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm »

TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:46 pm
How can you be sure of this please?
I have the empowerment, the lung, and the instruction for this system.
Perhaps it could be of some use regardless?
Nope. There is the entire of teaching of the Dzogchen system behind this one little text.
I'm no expert so I'm just talking here...
One needs the empowerment, the lung, and the instruction.
although I don't think these ideas are exclusive to Buddhism are they?
Not only are they exclusive to Buddhism, they are exclusive to the Dzogchen system within Buddhism.
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Re: Why don't Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by TannersHatch »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:01 pm
TannersHatch wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:46 pm
although I don't think these ideas are exclusive to Buddhism are they?
Not only are they exclusive to Buddhism, they are exclusive to the Dzogchen system within Buddhism.
The idea of other realms after death are exclusive to Buddhism? Isn't this 'wheel' largely a Hindu concept? Minus the Buddha's in liberation? Or is it only meant for those of your esteemed position? (The bardo states I refer to depicted on the wheel).
I should exclusively learn from learned folks such as yourself do you advise? Not explore other avenues of thought? Funny didn't the Buddha say something to the contrary to that? Guess the Bardos are closed to me until I get the lung eh? Where will I go do you think?

...think I'll go. Meditate on equanimity for a bit.
Last edited by TannersHatch on Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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