Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:09 am We always contact the floor right but we won’t feel that until we notice it. Without noticing there is no sensation recognized.
consciously, no
But subconsciously, yes.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
muni
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by muni »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:31 pm What would correspond to the western concept of ‘subconscious’ I don’t mean dream state, but rather, that we are subconsciously aware of lots of things in our environment, even our bodies. For example, every area of skin has active nerve endings. We constantly feel temperature and moisture and texture. Right now, you feel the surface of your knees. You just don’t realize it. There are other things, like when you have a hunch or feeling that you are in danger.
I think this is what Bankei refers to as “marvelous unborn mind”.

Is this awareness or consciousness or something else?
There is often saying in guidance be aware of all what happens in your body. Strange, there then happens a lot what normally doesn't. :o And later on in meditation when swept away by thoughts, pause and ask: Oh what is happening in my mind? This to turn back.

"See" the stream of own "re"acting thoughts on thoughts, on whatever, by which we suffer. By seeing so, is helpful to at least avoid unnecessary suffering. That is why guidance can help to "see" or be aware.

H h Dalai Lama talked about different consciousness like coarse consciousness, more subtle consciousness, most subtlest consciousness as clear light what allows liberation of suffering. So many consciousnesses.
White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Re-active thoughts are ego. Ego is the pain bringer, not the author of suffering which is self. Pain brings suffering when it interacts with self experience. Chasing comforting thoughts brings pain. This is ego. Ego is grasping after thoughts. And aversion from uncomfortable thoughts. Watching your mind is not forgetting your mind. If you want to watch your mind: fine, if you let go of controlled watching that can be helpful too. One begins by watching the mind, one later accepts pain without aversion to it.

The ignorance of Jung was to believe in a realised self (Ideation), realised through understanding ones own unconscious and engaging with it. This is just another path of death to self. I don’t know if he knew that. The end is joy. Experience is exceedingly subtle. What you look for is what you find. Watching the mind from time to time should reveal progress. Until it no longer really matters. Pain is accepted or rejected. With skill pain diminishes, ego loses its sting because there is no self for it to play with.

Actually there wasn’t ever a self, only subtle sensations of selfhood and perhaps a physical presence in the heart. Remove these and you remove suffering and then you can deal with ego and it’s pain.

Thank you for ignoring me, that means less ego work with and less pain, but really it doesn’t matter. Rgds, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:18 am So really, if someone wants to make this objection, they should first define exactly what is meant by "subconscious" in such a critique in the first place.
Well, since I brought ‘subconscious’ up in the first place, what I am defining it as, in this context, basically means being aware of things (the body, the environment, etc) without knowing or realizing that you are aware of them.

For example, suppose you walk into a room, and you immediately notice a Buddha stature on a shelf or table. Your full attention at that moment is on that object.
According to Buddhist teachings, the mind is only aware of one aspect of an object at a time.

However, everything else in the room doesn’t suddenly become a black void. There is subtle awareness of everything in that room. It’s all still there on your field of vision. If the room is warm and cozy, there is a subtle and spontaneous awareness of that too, even though you might not even “think” about it. So, if you’re not consciously thinking about all the things you perceive, then all of this perception is occurring, one could say, on a “sub-conscious” level, or however you want to label it.
As I mentioned, Bankei referred to the awareness of things we aren’t even aware that we are aware of as the “marvelous unborn mind”.

The implication is that through practice and developing the mind, one becomes more aware, more in tune with all the things we aren’t usually aware of. Indeed, a Buddha is fully aware, with nothing “subconscious” hidden within his own mind.

So, my question was about whether there are Buddhist concepts that correspond to or refer to having an awareness of things without consciously recognizing that one is aware of them.
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muni
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by muni »

Sub consciousness in Western Psychology I do not reject since it at least allows the space there is more, vaster awareness, than 'we are aware off'.
Mantra:
First I like you to understand the source & meaning of the Sanskrit word Mantra. „Man“ refers to mind & „tra“ to a tool; hence Mantra is a tool for the mind. While our mind includes both consciousness & sub-consciousness, „tra“ is like a bridge. As we understand it, the consciousness accounts for about 10% and the sub-consciousness for the remaining 90%.
https://chogyalrinpoche.org/how-to-chant-mantra/
muni
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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A Guided Meditation on the Body, Space, and Awareness with Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Riju
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Riju »

Consciousness is bound by an ego. Awareness goes beyond ego and Emptinesss.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Riju wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:54 pm Consciousness is bound by an ego. Awareness goes beyond ego and Emptinesss.
This has sort of been my understanding.
When awareness, which in itself is pure and unobstructed and not conditioned by the kleshas,
is “filtered” you might say, through the whole subject-object contact thing, dependent on ego, that’s what arises as what we refer to as consciousness, which ends up basically being the experience of samsara.
But when that duality is gone beyond, the pure, unbiased awareness of a Buddha is what is experienced.
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Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Riju wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:54 pm Consciousness is bound by an ego. Awareness goes beyond ego and Emptinesss.
This has sort of been my understanding.
This has nothing to with with the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha never identified something as "awareness" which is separate from the consciousness and which "goes beyond the ego and emptiness." This is some kind of Advaita idea.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Archie2009 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Riju wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:54 pm Consciousness is bound by an ego. Awareness goes beyond ego and Emptinesss.
This has sort of been my understanding.
This has nothing to with with the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha never identified something as "awareness" which is separate from the consciousness and which "goes beyond the ego and emptiness." This is some kind of Advaita idea.
So obvious, it didn't need an expert to point out. :jawdrop:
undefineable
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by undefineable »

Sounds like the same thing doing different stuff on different modes of operation, and appearing to different extents...
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}
Riju
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Riju »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Riju wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:54 pm Consciousness is bound by an ego. Awareness goes beyond ego and Emptinesss.
This has sort of been my understanding.
This has nothing to with with the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha never identified something as "awareness" which is separate from the consciousness and which "goes beyond the ego and emptiness." This is some kind of Advaita idea.
Lotus sutra on earth was spoken by Guatam Buddha (16th son of Great Universal Wisdom Execellence Buddha------ref phantom city chapter 7).
Guatam Buddha was capable of experiencing only the consciousness of His father. He never experienced the awareness that was guiding His father. This is the reason that Guatam never commented on God and awareness. Awareness comes not from Emptiness but from a different source.
Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

Riju wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:22 pm

This has sort of been my understanding.
This has nothing to with with the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha never identified something as "awareness" which is separate from the consciousness and which "goes beyond the ego and emptiness." This is some kind of Advaita idea.
Lotus sutra on earth was spoken by Guatam Buddha (16th son of Great Universal Wisdom Execellence Buddha------ref phantom city chapter 7).
Guatam Buddha was capable of experiencing only the consciousness of His father. He never experienced the awareness that was guiding His father. This is the reason that Guatam never commented on God and awareness. Awareness comes not from Emptiness but from a different source.
No matter which way you slice, the dharmakāya is never separate from the rūpakāya. They are in union, a whole.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:22 pm
Riju wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:54 pm Consciousness is bound by an ego. Awareness goes beyond ego and Emptinesss.
This has sort of been my understanding.
This has nothing to with with the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha never identified something as "awareness" which is separate from the consciousness and which "goes beyond the ego and emptiness." This is some kind of Advaita idea.
Yeah, sorry I was only referring to the “consciousness bound by ego” part. Not the “beyond emptiness” part.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
KC:
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by KC: »

Rick wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:22 pmGiven the subtle to gargantuan differences in how different Buddhist schools translate/interpret the terms awareness and consciousness, how does a student of Buddhism avoid getting heinously confused?
I'm not sure that this report is accurate.

Have worked my way up by way of Mahayana, through madhyamaka/prasangika to rang.tung / shen.tong, and have frequently been impressed by the consistency.

Different styles, different metaphors, different emphasis, for sure, but "gargantuan differences"?
I can't be sure you're actually referring to legitimate schools of Buddhadharma.
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