Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rick
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Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Rick »

Given the subtle to gargantuan differences in how different Buddhist schools translate/interpret the terms awareness and consciousness, how does a student of Buddhism, rather than of one particular school of Buddhism, avoid getting heinously confused? I.e. is there universal agreement across all of Buddhism about the essence, or certain aspects of the two terms? Or is looking for agreement a fool's errand?
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Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:22 pm Given the subtle to gargantuan differences in how different Buddhist schools translate/interpret the terms awareness and consciousness, how does a student of Buddhism, rather than of one particular school of Buddhism, avoid getting heinously confused? I.e. is there universal agreement across all of Buddhism about the essence, or certain aspects of the two terms? Or is looking for agreement a fool's errand?
The terms "awareness" and "consciousness" are English terms. Therefore, one needs to look at the word list of equivalents to see which Sanskrit or Tibetan terms are being used for these two English terms, and their context. At that point, you can make useful comparisons and contrasts.

For example, you will be hard pressed to find the term "awareness" used at all in my translations.
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Rick
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Rick »

Understood. Makes sense. I read somewhere that Tibetan had as many terms for consciousness as, well, you know, Eskimos have for snow.

I'd come to think of the term awareness, as used in Buddhist contexts, to have little to nothing to do with awareness as used in Vedanta. Lo and behold, in the Mingyur Rinpoche meditation course I'm taking, the two views on awareness are very similar! Awareness in both points to clarity, radiance, cognizance, and always-present shining brightness.
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Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:04 pm Understood. Makes sense. I read somewhere that Tibetan had as many terms for consciousness as, well, you know, Eskimos have for snow.
Not really.
I'd come to think of the term awareness, as used in Buddhist contexts, to have little to nothing to do with awareness as used in Vedanta. Lo and behold, in the Mingyur Rinpoche meditation course I'm taking, the two views on awareness are very similar! Awareness in both points to clarity, radiance, cognizance, and always-present shining brightness.
The difference is emptiness, of course. RIg pa is baseless, without foundation, and empty.

Madhyamaka focuses on the outer objects, which are not sentient. Vajrayāna in general focuses on the subjective mind. Its cognizance (rig pa) clear, present, radiant, etc. But it's emptiness is the same emptiness as outer objects.
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LastLegend
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by LastLegend »

Rick wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:22 pm Given the subtle to gargantuan differences in how different Buddhist schools translate/interpret the terms awareness and consciousness, how does a student of Buddhism, rather than of one particular school of Buddhism, avoid getting heinously confused? I.e. is there universal agreement across all of Buddhism about the essence, or certain aspects of the two terms? Or is looking for agreement a fool's errand?
Awareness involves different functions of mind. Consciousness is at its original form is simply to know it. Although it simply knows or aware in emptiness of mind, it is considered ignorance. Difference amongst Tibetan followers on the forum is that they consider consciousness to be wisdom at this point and somehow a portion of consciousness is considered ignorance. In Chan, it’s still considered ignorance until final breakthrough as because karma continues to arise formed from previous experiences. Chan doesn’t call this state clarity its called original or pure consciousness. What’s considered wisdom is when consciousness becomes functional as able to transform karma. This can be done after final breakthrough. If consciousness is not functional, it’s considered ignorance even after final breakthrough because this denotes some sort of grasping going somewhere.

The issue of separation between consciousness and emptiness (Buddha nature) is the issue of grasping through seeking, resulting the confusion of deluded thoughts seeking and imaging what emptiness is. For example, if there is a location or it’s outside or inside, that’s the issue of imaging thoughts when emptiness isn’t anything can be imagined not inside or outside. It’s not even space or air.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

If you are unconscious, you are not aware of anything.
But you can be conscious and not aware of many things.

I look at it as similar to the difference between hearing and listening. We hear everything happening immediately around us, but what are we listening to?
For example, if you live in a modern home, and suddenly all the electricity goes off, the place becomes very quiet, and you realize that there was electrical humming and all sorts of “background noise” that you didn’t notice before.
Yet, you must have been aware of it, or conscious of it, whichever term you prefer, because otherwise, if you hadn’t been, then you wouldn’t detect any audible difference now.

Likewise, we are aware of everything around us, but we are only conscious of one thing at a time, even if that’s 300 separate things in a minute.

Or, you can say we are conscious of everything but only aware of one thing at a time.

The interchangeability of the two words can lead to confusion, but the different things they refer to should be distinct.
EMPTIFUL.
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conebeckham
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by conebeckham »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 pm If you are unconscious, you are not aware of anything.
But you can be conscious and not aware of many things.
IF you are unconscious, can you dream? If so, what sort of awareness is aware of the dream while you are unconscious?

If you are sleeping, and a sudden loud noise startles you awake, what awareness was there, to wake you from your unconscious state?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:59 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 pm If you are unconscious, you are not aware of anything.
But you can be conscious and not aware of many things.
IF you are unconscious, can you dream? If so, what sort of awareness is aware of the dream while you are unconscious?

If you are sleeping, and a sudden loud noise startles you awake, what awareness was there, to wake you from your unconscious state?
If you are dreaming, you are asleep but not unconscious.
This is why I say that there is awareness which precedes consciousness (Malcolm disagrees).
EMPTIFUL.
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LastLegend
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by LastLegend »

It help to know what thoughts are. It isn’t that obvious.
White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Spinning a web of tangled views. Where is non judgement (Nirvikalpa jnana)?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Non judgement is where there is no appearance of self to judge. Consciousness and awareness are grasping after self. Mere appearances. This too is a judgement and misleading.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

How silly!
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Rick
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Rick »

White Lotus wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:21 pm Spinning a web of tangled views.
Welcome to Dharma Wheel, right?

A while ago I decided to give my eclectic approach a rest, it's confusing to jump from Advaita to process philosophy to Buddhism to Krishnamurti to ... So I decided to home in on Buddhism ... and found out that Buddhism is not one thing, it's dozens of subtly differing schools and sub-schools! And with so many online courses available, it's hella easy to have several teachers, each from a different tradition. I guess that even if Ferdinand chooses one field to stay in, he still wants to smell all the different flowers in that field!
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White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Welcome to the cosmic knot/reality! That’s a Vedantan tool as well isn’t it? Cosmic mechanics! Or needlework.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Rick
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Rick »

White Lotus wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:13 pm Welcome to the cosmic knot/reality! That’s a Vedantan tool as well isn’t it? Cosmic mechanics! Or needlework.
Dunno this. Link?
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LastLegend
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by LastLegend »

White Lotus wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:27 pm Non judgement is where there is no appearance of self to judge. Consciousness and awareness are grasping after self. Mere appearances. This too is a judgement and misleading.
It takes a little bit to see mind isn’t outside inside.
Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:05 am
conebeckham wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:59 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:07 pm If you are unconscious, you are not aware of anything.
But you can be conscious and not aware of many things.
IF you are unconscious, can you dream? If so, what sort of awareness is aware of the dream while you are unconscious?

If you are sleeping, and a sudden loud noise startles you awake, what awareness was there, to wake you from your unconscious state?
If you are dreaming, you are asleep but not unconscious.
This is why I say that there is awareness which precedes consciousness (Malcolm disagrees).
That’s because awareness, sensation, is just a mental factor that arises with consciousness. I recently read a brilliant take down of so-called self awareness where is it is explained that rig pa aka awareness ividya) is just a name for sensation (vedana).
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:05 am
conebeckham wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:59 pm

IF you are unconscious, can you dream? If so, what sort of awareness is aware of the dream while you are unconscious?

If you are sleeping, and a sudden loud noise startles you awake, what awareness was there, to wake you from your unconscious state?
If you are dreaming, you are asleep but not unconscious.
This is why I say that there is awareness which precedes consciousness (Malcolm disagrees).
That’s because awareness, sensation, is just a mental factor that arises with consciousness. I recently read a brilliant take down of so-called self awareness where is it is explained that rig pa aka awareness ividya) is just a name for sensation (vedana).
Could you share that please? Thank you.
White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

As per the Cosmic Knot Rick, you can find something about it on Wikipedia. It’s a Universal concept, not only found in Buddhism. I once read that Vedanta too has this concept. Basically any view followed to its limit gets knotty and muddled. Once again this too is a concept/view, but fun to play with. I’m sorry I can’t find you a link Rick, I’m not very good with the technology! Rgds, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Last legend, we forget about awareness and consciousness. We also forget about non abiding. Life goes on but we don’t take it too seriously. Sometimes seriousness is called for. Have a nice day! :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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