Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

Arnoud wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:42 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:05 am

If you are dreaming, you are asleep but not unconscious.
This is why I say that there is awareness which precedes consciousness (Malcolm disagrees).
That’s because awareness, sensation, is just a mental factor that arises with consciousness. I recently read a brilliant take down of so-called self awareness where is it is explained that rig pa aka awareness ividya) is just a name for sensation (vedana).
Could you share that please? Thank you.
Sure, Smṛtijñanakīrti, in his Commentary on the Bodhcittavivarana remarks that svasaṃvedana (so so rang rig), often translated as self-awareness, etc., simply refers to sensations that one has that one is unable to communicate with others. He defines it in this in contrast to the svasaṃvedana proposed by cittamantrins, as self-aware aspectless consciousness.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Unravelling the knot.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:00 pm
Arnoud wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:42 pm

That’s because awareness, sensation, is just a mental factor that arises with consciousness. I recently read a brilliant take down of so-called self awareness where is it is explained that rig pa aka awareness ividya) is just a name for sensation (vedana).
Could you share that please? Thank you.
Sure, Smṛtijñanakīrti, in his Commentary on the Bodhcittavivarana remarks that svasaṃvedana (so so rang rig), often translated as self-awareness, etc., simply refers to sensations that one has that one is unable to communicate with others. He defines it in this in contrast to the svasaṃvedana proposed by cittamantrins, as self-aware aspectless consciousness.

Thanks. Is your translation of that forthcoming?
Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

Arnoud wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:00 pm
Arnoud wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:29 pm

Could you share that please? Thank you.
Sure, Smṛtijñanakīrti, in his Commentary on the Bodhcittavivarana remarks that svasaṃvedana (so so rang rig), often translated as self-awareness, etc., simply refers to sensations that one has that one is unable to communicate with others. He defines it in this in contrast to the svasaṃvedana proposed by cittamantrins, as self-aware aspectless consciousness.

Thanks. Is your translation of that forthcoming?
No, just part of my reading. :)
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:32 pm
Arnoud wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:00 pm

Sure, Smṛtijñanakīrti, in his Commentary on the Bodhcittavivarana remarks that svasaṃvedana (so so rang rig), often translated as self-awareness, etc., simply refers to sensations that one has that one is unable to communicate with others. He defines it in this in contrast to the svasaṃvedana proposed by cittamantrins, as self-aware aspectless consciousness.

Thanks. Is your translation of that forthcoming?
No, just part of my reading. :)
I still puddle away at Tibetan so maybe one day I will be able to read that myself. 👊
White Lotus
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by White Lotus »

Burning away subtle sensations of personal feeling by concentration of breath and focus of it on the sensations was part of the process for me of extinguishing self experience. There is however more to it than just that. I needed to have an intuitive and intellectual understanding of 1 and 0 and how they relate to self. 1 is the self shadow which can only be seen in darkness by it’s abscence. Like the opposite of a thigle. The 1 had to be sliced in half, crossed out after The ego had to been felt like an egg and then cracked by the black iron bar of the 1. This is an intuitive process and I imagine that cancelling out the sensations of self will be unique to the practitioner. I hope this is not unhelpful and that you can find your own way to escape from the prison of self. I have joy because pain no longer creates suffering. May my words be true and free from self deception by the grace of the Buddhas and my own worth, may all beings be set free from suffering: so be it. Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There needs to be an established word-for-word English language standard for translating Sanskrit /Pali/Tibetan concepts.
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Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:52 pm There needs to be an established word-for-word English language standard for translating Sanskrit /Pali/Tibetan concepts.
Yes, in a hundred years or so.
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Matt J
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Matt J »

I think this is not uncommon error among neo-Advaitins and self-taught people who lack access to proper instruction.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:00 pm Sure, Smṛtijñanakīrti, in his Commentary on the Bodhcittavivarana remarks that svasaṃvedana (so so rang rig), often translated as self-awareness, etc., simply refers to sensations that one has that one is unable to communicate with others. He defines it in this in contrast to the svasaṃvedana proposed by cittamantrins, as self-aware aspectless consciousness.
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Malcolm
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:33 pm I think this is not uncommon error among neo-Advaitins and self-taught people who lack access to proper instruction.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:00 pm Sure, Smṛtijñanakīrti, in his Commentary on the Bodhcittavivarana remarks that svasaṃvedana (so so rang rig), often translated as self-awareness, etc., simply refers to sensations that one has that one is unable to communicate with others. He defines it in this in contrast to the svasaṃvedana proposed by cittamantrins, as self-aware aspectless consciousness.
Yes, and in fact also Dzogchen texts, as you know, take great pains to distinguish rang rig, as the term is used in Dzogchen texts, from the false-aspectarian Yogacāra usage, etc., specifically so that people do not mistake Dzogchen view for the position of Yogacāra.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What would correspond to the western concept of ‘subconscious’ I don’t mean dream state, but rather, that we are subconsciously aware of lots of things in our environment, even our bodies. For example, every area of skin has active nerve endings. We constantly feel temperature and moisture and texture. Right now, you feel the surface of your knees. You just don’t realize it. There are other things, like when you have a hunch or feeling that you are in danger.
I think this is what Bankei refers to as “marvelous unborn mind”.

Is this awareness or consciousness or something else?
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:31 pm What would correspond to the western concept of ‘subconscious’ I don’t mean dream state, but rather, that we are subconsciously aware of lots of things in our environment, even our bodies. For example, every area of skin has active nerve endings. We constantly feel temperature and moisture and texture. Right now, you feel the surface of your knees. You just don’t realize it. There are other things, like when you have a hunch or feeling that you are in danger.
I think this is what Bankei refers to as “marvelous unborn mind”.

Is this awareness or consciousness or something else?
Maybe we always feel something upon contact with our body. But’s it won’t be noticed until it’s recognized. Couldn’t it be the feeling recognizes itself?
Last edited by LastLegend on Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
krodha
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:31 pm What would correspond to the western concept of ‘subconscious’ I don’t mean dream state, but rather, that we are subconsciously aware of lots of things in our environment, even our bodies.
There’s no subconscious in Buddhist teachings.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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krodha wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:01 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:31 pm What would correspond to the western concept of ‘subconscious’ I don’t mean dream state, but rather, that we are subconsciously aware of lots of things in our environment, even our bodies.
There’s no subconscious in Buddhist teachings.
No, there is no subconscious in some Jungian sense, but there are certainly latent tendencies in people’s mind streams of which they are not fully aware, I mean that is baked into the whole deal.

That is all that is required for there to functionally be a ‘subconscious’…some definitive theory is not needed.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by krodha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:48 amNo, there is no subconscious in some Jungian sense, but there are certainly latent tendencies in people’s mind streams of which they are not fully aware, I mean that is baked into the whole deal.

That is all that is required for there to functionally be a ‘subconscious’…some definitive theory is not needed.
In the past when this idea came up here it was clarified that it is antithetical to Buddhist teachings, and that these processes are conscious in nature, never subconscious or unconscious.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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krodha wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:48 amNo, there is no subconscious in some Jungian sense, but there are certainly latent tendencies in people’s mind streams of which they are not fully aware, I mean that is baked into the whole deal.

That is all that is required for there to functionally be a ‘subconscious’…some definitive theory is not needed.
In the past when this idea came up here it was clarified that it is antithetical to Buddhist teachings, and that these processes are conscious in nature, never subconscious or unconscious.
The only way for that to be so is to engage in a pointlessly semantic argument about what "subconscious" means, which is kinda what I recall from that conversation.

Ignorance is the primary klesha, as such, there is most certainly a spectrum of experience or at least latent tendencies unavailable to the default settings of a given samsaric mindstream, that shouldn't be controversial. If the vision of sentient beings is any way occluded by ignorance (which all teachings pretty much agree on), then there is something which is at least provisionally "subconscious", or at least obscured. Similarly, beings are generally unaware of being moved around by the winds of Karma in the manner they are.

Whether or not we decide to turn that into a noun, or compare it to this or that theory is another question.

So really, if someone wants to make this objection, they should first define exactly what is meant by "subconscious" in such a critique in the first place. FYI there is not some unified answer to that in Western Psychology at all, there is a wide range of sometimes contradictory views on what that term means.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by krodha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:18 am
krodha wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:48 amNo, there is no subconscious in some Jungian sense, but there are certainly latent tendencies in people’s mind streams of which they are not fully aware, I mean that is baked into the whole deal.

That is all that is required for there to functionally be a ‘subconscious’…some definitive theory is not needed.
In the past when this idea came up here it was clarified that it is antithetical to Buddhist teachings, and that these processes are conscious in nature, never subconscious or unconscious.
The only way for that to be so is to engage in a pointlessly semantic argument about what "subconscious" means, which is exactly what I recall from that conversation.

Ignorance is the primary klesha, as such, there is most certainly a spectrum of experience or at least latent tendencies unavailable to the default settings of the samsaric mind, that shouldn't be controversial. If the vision of sentient beings is any way occluded by ignorance (which all teachings pretty much agree on), then there is something which is at least provisionally "subconscious". Similarly, beings are generally unaware of being moved around by the winds of Karma.

Whether or not we decide to turn that into a noun, or compare it to this or that theory is another question.

So really, if someone wants to make this objection, they should first define exactly what is meant by "subconscious" in the first place. FYI there is not some unified answer to that in Western Psychology at all, there is a wide range of sometimes contradictory views on what that term means.
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 60#p298160

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 11#p470411
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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Yeah I've already read it, like I said, these are IMO semantic arguments that hinge on whether something is a kind of latent potential or a "subconscious process" - not something which any school Western psychology (which is where this objection always comes up - that such a thing doesn't exist in Buddhism) that I am aware of has any kind of unified theory on. After all defining the difference between those two things gets kind of silly, because a process with no one to witness it might not be said to be a process at all, in anything but name.

if we are just talking about whether or not there are tendencies, disposition which operate on sentient beings mindstreams outside of their default awareness, due to ignorance, the answer is yes. So, I am unclear on why it is a subject of debate, other than a desire to create contrast.

A lot of this seems to be people's assumptions that there is some unified idea of a "subconscious" in Western Pysch, there isn't. Pyschodynamic theories from Jung and Freud do not reflect some reified and identifiable thing, there were and are just the ideas of Jung and Freud etc., and generally aren't held to be terribly influential these days, at least not as much as other parts of their theories.

"Are there latent tendencies forces etc. operating on mindstreams outside their conscious awareness"

-yes

Ok, then there is provisionally a subconscious in Buddhism, the rest of the discussion seems mostly academic for me.
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:27 am Yeah I've already read it, like I said, these are IMO semantic arguments that hinge on whether something is a kind of latent potential or a "subconscious process" - not something which any school Western psychology (which is where this objection always comes up - that such a thing doesn't exist in Buddhism) that I am aware of has any kind of unified theory on. After all defining the difference between those two things gets kind of silly, because a process with no one to witness it might not be said to be a process at all, in anything but name.

if we are just talking about whether or not there are things which operate on sentient beings outside of their default awareness, the answer is obviously yes, so I am unclear on why it is a subject of debate, other than a desire to create contrast.

A lot of this seems to be people's assumptions that there is some unified idea of a "subconscious" in Western Pysch, there isn't. Pyschodynamic theories from Jung and Freud do not reflect some reified and identifiable thing, there were and are just the ideas of Jung and Freud etc., and generally aren't held to be terribly influential these days, at least not as much as other parts of their theories.
Does this count as either awareness or consciousness?
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Re: Awareness, and consciousness, (rig pa) ... oh my!

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We always contact the floor right but we won’t feel that until we notice it. Without noticing there is no sensation recognized.
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