The Eightfold Path and CBT

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rick wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:04 am So the question becomes: What do you do with the fact of being conditioned up the wazoo? You can pretend you're beyond conditioning, but that's magical reality. You can embrace your conditioning, but that's like treading water, you won't get much of anywhere and you'll just keep repeating unskillful thoughts and behaviors. Or you can recognize your conditioning and work at unraveling it, loosening its grip, without knowing how 'free' from it you might be able to get. In other words: Move towards freedom from conditioning and see where it takes you.
Wherever you are, however you’ve been conditioned, that’s what you bring to your practice. That’s the muddy water that the pure lotus grows from. So, you don’t need to shake off your conditioning before practicing Dharma. You use all of it, good and bad, as fuel to propel you on the path.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

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Toenail wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:13 am I met many long term dharma practitioners who should have went to therapy. I myself did. I also think their dharma practice would be much better after 25 sessions of cbt.

Yeah. I think a lot of people come to Dharma with serious psychological wounds that they are trying to address, but sometimes they don’t and just lug that crap along year after year.

There is also a holdover of people (you can see some of it on this forum) that don’t know much about the variety of approaches in Western Pysch, are unfairly dismissive of it, or associate the entirety of Western Pysch with approaches and theories that no one has paid attention to for years.

There is still a stigma and distrust around therapy (some of that feeling is justified, and is mostly about inadequacy of the healthcare system IMO) and I think some Buddhist just assume that it can’t possibly help them, they don’t need it, etc.

In some cases they probably don’t, other cases, not so sure.

I will say that learning basic CBT wrt Negative Core Beliefs and Cognitive Distortions really has helped me to see the…shape and color of my particular Kleshas more clearly, and to really pinpoint where my own resultant behavior is negative and not so great. So there has been some value there to my Buddhist practice.

Far as what to do with conditioning, work with it, and eventually see it’s true nature, none of it is a problem when we can do that, but I think most cannot sustain that 24/7, so sometimes we have to pretend it’s real and just do some work.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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boda
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

Post by boda »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:35 pm Wherever you are, however you’ve been conditioned, that’s what you bring to your practice. That’s the muddy water that the pure lotus grows from. So, you don’t need to shake off your conditioning before practicing Dharma. You use all of it, good and bad, as fuel to propel you on the path.
Use conditioning to escape conditioning. That sounds circular, like a wheel.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

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boda wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:26 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:35 pm Wherever you are, however you’ve been conditioned, that’s what you bring to your practice. That’s the muddy water that the pure lotus grows from. So, you don’t need to shake off your conditioning before practicing Dharma. You use all of it, good and bad, as fuel to propel you on the path.
Use conditioning to escape conditioning. That sounds circular, like a wheel.
Well, this idea is expressed in many schools of Buddhism. In Vajrayana, most notably, everything can be path.
Similarly, in Zen. The late Korean zen master DaeHaeng Sunim would say, “Throw everything into the Ju-In-Gon” (your true nature, tathagatagharba).
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

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I am a fan of CBT. So much better than the therapy they forced us to take in the military with all the drugs and psychological manipulation. I take it for fun now since we get free therapy. David Burns is a groovy dude. He makes something very complex seem incredibly simple. his views seem very informed by Buddhism. I bet an experienced meditator could get pretty far with the mood sheets, the Feeling Good podcasts and the Feeling Great book. They would have the natural bravery to face their demons.
https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

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Nemo wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:27 am I am a fan of CBT. So much better than the therapy they forced us to take in the military with all the drugs and psychological manipulation. I take it for fun now since we get free therapy. David Burns is a groovy dude. He makes something very complex seem incredibly simple. his views seem very informed by Buddhism. I bet an experienced meditator could get pretty far with the mood sheets, the Feeling Good podcasts and the Feeling Great book. They would have the natural bravery to face their demons.
https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/
I have found ACT and the work of Stephen Hayes to be good as well. Psychology today is hugely improved from what it once was and I am also seeing a lot more hesitance in the mental health world to try to throw meds at people before trying other things, I think there is a real shift happening there, a very needed one.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

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To those in the know,

I would guess that doing CBT on one's own (with no therapist) is about as ill-advised as doing Buddhism on one's own (with no teacher), yes?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Nemo
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

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Rick wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:57 pm To those in the know,

I would guess that doing CBT on one's own (with no therapist) is about as ill-advised as doing Buddhism on one's own (with no teacher), yes?
The doc disagrees. The luxury to take tons of therapy is incredibly elitist. How many 175$ sessions can you afford per year? There is a large push to make such things more accessible. Of course it's better with a therapist. Some docs are even training coaches with a therapist overseeing the skills training and goal setting of clients at a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure it will work out but it's worth trying. You can also get pretty far reading books on your own, crafting a small shrine and meditating in Buddhism. Not really sure where the harm is unless you are an elitist in love with hierarchy. But if gatekeeping is your kink that's cool.

www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolution ... B08RF28K48
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

Post by Toenail »

Nemo wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:15 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:57 pm To those in the know,

I would guess that doing CBT on one's own (with no therapist) is about as ill-advised as doing Buddhism on one's own (with no teacher), yes?
The doc disagrees. The luxury to take tons of therapy is incredibly elitist. How many 175$ sessions can you afford per year? There is a large push to make such things more accessible. Of course it's better with a therapist. Some docs are even training coaches with a therapist overseeing the skills training and goal setting of clients at a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure it will work out but it's worth trying. You can also get pretty far reading books on your own, crafting a small shrine and meditating in Buddhism. Not really sure where the harm is unless you are an elitist in love with hierarchy. But if gatekeeping is your kink that's cool.

www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolution ... B08RF28K48
There is value in having a therapist. You can read self help books etc., but it wont address a serious mental illness in the same way as therapy. Psychotherapy research has made a very big effort to research the driving factors behind a therapeutic process and there are more factors involved than some techniques or teaching principles. There is the factor of therapeutic alliance etc. It is very strong. You can look into it more if you want. Klaus Grawe is a very good source on the driving factors behind therapeutic success. If you have a serious mental illness it is extremely difficult to address it yourself, even if you read what to do. For example, give someone with serious PTSD or panic disorder a flyer with the basics and look how far they will get. Or someone who has not been out of his bed for 6 months because he is too depressed. I definately think everyone could benefit from learning the principles and applying them to ones life, dont get me wrong. But if you have a mental disorder, you should go to a therapist. Maybe in your countries it is difficult and expensive. In my country there is public health insurance and we get it for free. You got to wait 6 months for a slot, but then the insurance pays 60+ sessions of CBT. After that you have to wait for 2 years but then you can do it again. Psychoanalysis they pay for lobbyist reasons up to 180+ sessions. Because CBT is based on empirical evidence and science you dont need as many sessions. Sometimes 12-25 is enough.
boda
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

Post by boda »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:12 am
boda wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:26 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:35 pm Wherever you are, however you’ve been conditioned, that’s what you bring to your practice. That’s the muddy water that the pure lotus grows from. So, you don’t need to shake off your conditioning before practicing Dharma. You use all of it, good and bad, as fuel to propel you on the path.
Use conditioning to escape conditioning. That sounds circular, like a wheel.
Well, this idea is expressed in many schools of Buddhism. In Vajrayana, most notably, everything can be path.
Similarly, in Zen. The late Korean zen master DaeHaeng Sunim would say, “Throw everything into the Ju-In-Gon” (your true nature, tathagatagharba).
Honestly, it sounds to me like trying to rationalize not practicing and continuing to indulge in “fuel”.
boda
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

Post by boda »

Toenail wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:06 pm
Nemo wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:15 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:57 pm To those in the know,

I would guess that doing CBT on one's own (with no therapist) is about as ill-advised as doing Buddhism on one's own (with no teacher), yes?
The doc disagrees. The luxury to take tons of therapy is incredibly elitist. How many 175$ sessions can you afford per year? There is a large push to make such things more accessible. Of course it's better with a therapist. Some docs are even training coaches with a therapist overseeing the skills training and goal setting of clients at a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure it will work out but it's worth trying. You can also get pretty far reading books on your own, crafting a small shrine and meditating in Buddhism. Not really sure where the harm is unless you are an elitist in love with hierarchy. But if gatekeeping is your kink that's cool.

www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolution ... B08RF28K48
There is value in having a therapist. You can read self help books etc., but it wont address a serious mental illness in the same way as therapy. Psychotherapy research has made a very big effort to research the driving factors behind a therapeutic process and there are more factors involved than some techniques or teaching principles. There is the factor of therapeutic alliance etc. It is very strong. You can look into it more if you want. Klaus Grawe is a very good source on the driving factors behind therapeutic success. If you have a serious mental illness it is extremely difficult to address it yourself, even if you read what to do. For example, give someone with serious PTSD or panic disorder a flyer with the basics and look how far they will get. Or someone who has not been out of his bed for 6 months because he is too depressed. I definately think everyone could benefit from learning the principles and applying them to ones life, dont get me wrong. But if you have a mental disorder, you should go to a therapist. Maybe in your countries it is difficult and expensive. In my country there is public health insurance and we get it for free. You got to wait 6 months for a slot, but then the insurance pays 60+ sessions of CBT. After that you have to wait for 2 years but then you can do it again. Psychoanalysis they pay for lobbyist reasons up to 180+ sessions. Because CBT is based on empirical evidence and science you dont need as many sessions. Sometimes 12-25 is enough.
I had panic disorder when I was younger, with frequent inexplicable panic attacks, and got over it myself with self-help books and the like. It was very serious.
Toenail
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Re: The Eightfold Path and CBT

Post by Toenail »

boda wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:10 pm
Toenail wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:06 pm
Nemo wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:15 pm

The doc disagrees. The luxury to take tons of therapy is incredibly elitist. How many 175$ sessions can you afford per year? There is a large push to make such things more accessible. Of course it's better with a therapist. Some docs are even training coaches with a therapist overseeing the skills training and goal setting of clients at a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure it will work out but it's worth trying. You can also get pretty far reading books on your own, crafting a small shrine and meditating in Buddhism. Not really sure where the harm is unless you are an elitist in love with hierarchy. But if gatekeeping is your kink that's cool.

www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolution ... B08RF28K48
There is value in having a therapist. You can read self help books etc., but it wont address a serious mental illness in the same way as therapy. Psychotherapy research has made a very big effort to research the driving factors behind a therapeutic process and there are more factors involved than some techniques or teaching principles. There is the factor of therapeutic alliance etc. It is very strong. You can look into it more if you want. Klaus Grawe is a very good source on the driving factors behind therapeutic success. If you have a serious mental illness it is extremely difficult to address it yourself, even if you read what to do. For example, give someone with serious PTSD or panic disorder a flyer with the basics and look how far they will get. Or someone who has not been out of his bed for 6 months because he is too depressed. I definately think everyone could benefit from learning the principles and applying them to ones life, dont get me wrong. But if you have a mental disorder, you should go to a therapist. Maybe in your countries it is difficult and expensive. In my country there is public health insurance and we get it for free. You got to wait 6 months for a slot, but then the insurance pays 60+ sessions of CBT. After that you have to wait for 2 years but then you can do it again. Psychoanalysis they pay for lobbyist reasons up to 180+ sessions. Because CBT is based on empirical evidence and science you dont need as many sessions. Sometimes 12-25 is enough.
I had panic disorder when I was younger, with frequent inexplicable panic attacks, and got over it myself with self-help books and the like. It was very serious.
:cheers: :anjali:
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