The Eightfold Path and CBT

[Rick]

Is following the Eightfold Path somewhat like doing cognitive behavioral therapy in that it identifies harmful mental habits and replaces them with beneficial mental habits, a kind of de-conditioning and re-conditioning of view?

[Johnny Dangerous]

My Sakya teacher is a Loppon and a western trained psychotherapist, he once told something like “Buddhism is the ultimate CBT”.

[Rick]

Fascinating. I've never done CBT, but think I'd probably benefit from it.

Have you done CBT? If so would you say from personal experience that there are aspects of Buddhist 'training' that are similar to CBT work?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Fascinating. I've never done CBT, but think I'd probably benefit from it.

Have you done CBT? If so would you say from personal experience that there are aspects of Buddhist 'training' that are similar to CBT work?

Yes and I use it professionally sometimes, in a simple way.

Lojong is very similar in some ways, and CBT and Buddhism both acknowledge the primacy of thoughts in directing mental disposition and ones perception of reality.

The basics of CBT are pretty easy to get, read up on negative core beliefs, schema, cognitive distortions, and the cognitive triangle.

Obviously, CBTjust aims to help with a specific problem or to bring someone to a stable place, whereas Buddhism has much larger goals.

My teacher said something like “CBT can fit inside of Buddhism but not the othe way around.”

[PadmaVonSamba]

Is following the Eightfold Path somewhat like doing cognitive behavioral therapy in that it identifies harmful mental habits and replaces them with beneficial mental habits, a kind of de-conditioning and re-conditioning of view?

The eightfold path addresses actions of body, speech, and mind.
Also, no reinforcements/rewards as part of the process.

[Rick]

JD, cool, thanks.

In your opinion, is there a danger of replacing one form of conditioning (dysfunctional, unhealthy) with another (functional, healthy)?

I mean when it comes to psychotherapy and neurotic behavior that leads to suffering, who cares if you end up re-conditioned, the goal is to lessen or eliminate the neurotic behavior, not to be free of conditioning.

But when it comes to liberation/enlightenment, is ending up conditioned rather than free a potential problem?

Note: I'm not trying to rile anyone up, I'm honestly very interested in this as seen from a Buddhist perspective.

[Rick]

Also, no reinforcements/rewards as part of the process.

Isn't encouragement from teachers and peers on the same path reinforcement and reward? That's how it's worked for every tradition or approach I've ever been involved with.

[Johnny Dangerous]

JD, cool, thanks.

In your opinion, is there a danger of replacing one form of conditioning (dysfunctional, unhealthy) with another (functional, healthy)?

We are always conditioning ourselves, samsara is all conditioning, using our conditioning as the path, to lead away from samsara, is the best approach to everyday life, to my mind.

Dzogchen and to a degree Tantra, maybe you could argue Zen also tries to bring the person utterly beyond our conditioning, with no need for a long process of "good conditioning" before leaving conditioning behind entirely, but as long we live in the relative world we are conditioning ourselves in one way or another, so most require some kind of "good conditioning" practice, so even these vehicles have such practices.

Lojong for example provides what is essentially the same notion as CBT but with a goal which of course goes way beyond CBT in it's aims.

As one of the slogans says though "liberate even the antidote", the aim is to go beyond antidotes and "good conditioning", but they are necessary at
times.

Anyway, CBT is quite simple in practice, mostly, here is a list of cognitive distortions:

Take a situation, notice where you are falling into one of these patterns of thought, then dispute learn to dispute the thought and/or replace with a different one that is either more accurate, or at least leads in a different direction. It's almost like a secular version of antidotes in the Mahayana. But of course it is limited by the fact that the view it comes from is Western Pysch, and not Dharma. So, the limitation is just trying to make you a healthier human being. It's a great goal, but obviously not the same as Dharma. They are both about transforming cognition - and that is where you will find the biggest similarity, but of course are utterly different in their worldview.

Anyway I think i misquoted my teacher earlier, he said something more like "Western Pysch [not just CBT] fits within Buddhism, but not the other way around". Meaning, the view and scope of psychology is simply much smaller than Buddhism. There are inklings, Maslow for instance figured out that the beyond the top of his pyramid (which is self-actualization) was self-transcendence, Viktor Frankl had some really deep insights, but of course Western Pysch has no clearly defined spiritual aim. Maybe It's kind of like comparing Buddhism and Stoicism, there are a lot of similar conclusions about how to do stuff and approach problems, but maybe not so much in the overall view of things.

There is of course way more to CBT and it can get much more involved.

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and I think Dialectical Behavior Therapy are often called "Third Wave" CBT therapies and are directly derived from Buddhist notions in places. IIRC Marsha Linehan who created DBT is either Buddhist or was.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Also, no reinforcements/rewards as part of the process.

Isn't encouragement from teachers and peers on the same path reinforcement and reward? That's how it's worked for every tradition or approach I've ever been involved with.

Perhaps. But you don’t get a cookie for having not killed someone or for not engaging in wrongful speech.

It is encouraging, as you say, when a teacher recognizes that you’ve absorbed and are practicing what you have been taught, dharma-wise. When you can say, for example, “…and I didn’t get angry” and they acknowledge that you do in fact “get it”, that goes a long way.

At the same time, my experience from teachers has generally been, “that’s nice. Don’t cling to it.”

I’m not disagreeing that the eightfold path is a type of behavior modification. That’s exactly what it is. I think it provides its own rewards. But isn’t that basically karma?

[Toenail]

Also, no reinforcements/rewards as part of the process.

Isn't encouragement from teachers and peers on the same path reinforcement and reward? That's how it's worked for every tradition or approach I've ever been involved with.

Perhaps. But you don’t get a cookie for having not killed someone or for not engaging in wrongful speech.

It is encouraging, as you say, when a teacher recognizes that you’ve absorbed and are practicing what you have been taught, dharma-wise. When you can say, for example, “…and I didn’t get angry” and they acknowledge that you do in fact “get it”, that goes a long way.

At the same time, my experience from teachers has generally been, “that’s nice. Don’t cling to it.”

I’m not disagreeing that the eightfold path is a type of behavior modification. That’s exactly what it is. I think it provides its own rewards. But isn’t that basically karma?

Your understanding of CBT principles is very narrow. If you are interested look up SORC Model. There should be a wikipedia page.

[Matt J]

To add to JD, in addition to "good" or skillful conditioning, de-conditioning can also be a process. I've found that over time, one's teacher often refines one's view and practice.

JD, cool, thanks.

In your opinion, is there a danger of replacing one form of conditioning (dysfunctional, unhealthy) with another (functional, healthy)?

We are always conditioning ourselves, samsara is all conditioning, using our conditioning as the path, to lead away from samsara, is the best approach to everyday life, to my mind.

Dzogchen and to a degree Tantra, maybe you could argue Zen also tries to bring the person utterly beyond our conditioning, with no need for a long process of "good conditioning" before leaving conditioning behind entirely, but as long we live in the relative world we are conditioning ourselves in one way or another, so most require some kind of "good conditioning" practice, so even these vehicles have such practices.

[Rick]

We are always conditioning ourselves, samsara is all conditioning, using our conditioning as the path, to lead away from samsara, is the best approach to everyday life, to my mind.

Dzogchen and to a degree Tantra, maybe you could argue Zen also tries to bring the person utterly beyond our conditioning, with no need for a long process of "good conditioning" before leaving conditioning behind entirely, but as long we live in the relative world we are conditioning ourselves in one way or another, so most require some kind of "good conditioning" practice, so even these vehicles have such practices.

I agree that we, as all living organisms, are deeply conditioned. I think it's really important to realize, in the gut, just how conditioned we are. So the question becomes: What do you do with the fact of being conditioned up the wazoo? You can pretend you're beyond conditioning, but that's magical reality. You can embrace your conditioning, but that's like treading water, you won't get much of anywhere and you'll just keep repeating unskillful thoughts and behaviors. Or you can recognize your conditioning and work at unraveling it, loosening its grip, without knowing how 'free' from it you might be able to get. In other words: Move towards freedom from conditioning and see where it takes you.

?

[Rick]

I’m not disagreeing that the eightfold path is a type of behavior modification. That’s exactly what it is. I think it provides its own rewards. But isn’t that basically karma?

Good point. (But dammit I want my cookie!)

[Johnny Dangerous]

We are always conditioning ourselves, samsara is all conditioning, using our conditioning as the path, to lead away from samsara, is the best approach to everyday life, to my mind.

Dzogchen and to a degree Tantra, maybe you could argue Zen also tries to bring the person utterly beyond our conditioning, with no need for a long process of "good conditioning" before leaving conditioning behind entirely, but as long we live in the relative world we are conditioning ourselves in one way or another, so most require some kind of "good conditioning" practice, so even these vehicles have such practices.

I agree that we, as all living organisms, are deeply conditioned. I think it's really important to realize, in the gut, just how conditioned we are. So the question becomes: What do you do with the fact of being conditioned up the wazoo? You can pretend you're beyond conditioning, but that's magical reality. You can embrace your conditioning, but that's like treading water, you won't get much of anywhere and you'll just keep repeating unskillful thoughts and behaviors. Or you can recognize your conditioning and work at unraveling it, loosening its grip, without knowing how 'free' from it you might be able to get. In other words: Move towards freedom from conditioning and see where it takes you.

?

Well, I figure if we are Dharma practitioners we at least theoretically believe it is possible to be totally free from conditioning, to completely awaken from the dream. Some points of view say we are already awake and the sleep itself is not real in the first place, so the practice consists in realizing that, and living directly in that.

Either way though, for most of us daily life is the dream, and even if we can briefly realize that our sleep itself is an illusion, we can't sustain that all the time. For that, we need relative practices that do things like work with thought, emotion, etc. That is my take on what my teachers have explained.

[Toenail]

I met many long term dharma practitioners who should have went to therapy. I myself did. I also think their dharma practice would be much better after 25 sessions of cbt.

[Rick]

I met many long term dharma practitioners who should have went to therapy.

Makes sense to me. A Zen Buddhist psychotherapist friend once said to me that maturity in the spiritual realm does not necessarily correspond to maturity in the psychological realm. Which could explain why so many accomplished spiritual teachers have messed-up personal lives?

[Rick]

Well, I figure if we are Dharma practitioners we at least theoretically believe it is possible to be totally free from conditioning, to completely awaken from the dream.

I vividly remember Anam Thubten saying in a retreat (paraphrasing): We should realize that all of our stories about self/world/reality are just that, stories, and let them go, but if there is one story we hold onto, let it be that of enlightenment.

[Toenail]

I met many long term dharma practitioners who should have went to therapy.

Makes sense to me. A Zen Buddhist psychotherapist friend once said to me that maturity in the spiritual realm does not necessarily correspond to maturity in the psychological realm. Which could explain why so many accomplished spiritual teachers have messed-up personal lives?

I can't comment on accomplished spiritual teachers, but many people have mental illnesses.. Anxiety disorders, depression, OCD, etc. CBT really helps with this. Dharma also helps, but it is not directed specifically to treat these disorders, so it is easy to fool oneself and avoid ones problems. There are many people with addiction problems that are dharma practitioners etc. The worst is if dharma is used to avoid or compensate dealing with ones mental illness directly. This happens a lot and people dont achieve anything. CBT does not take anything away from the dharma. It is not a substitute for dharma. But just as one may take an antibiotic to deal with a nasty antibacterial infection to be able to practice the dharma one can use CBT as well. It is only of benefit and very much in harmony with the dharma.

For those who do not know much about its principles, the wikipedia article is pretty good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive ... al_therapy

[Toenail]

Also, no reinforcements/rewards as part of the process.

Isn't encouragement from teachers and peers on the same path reinforcement and reward? That's how it's worked for every tradition or approach I've ever been involved with.

From a CBT point of view people do things because they are either motivated by gaining happiness or avoiding suffering (Lust/Unlust). So if you are doing anything - no matter what - it means that you are getting a reward or reinforcement from it. In CBT reward/reinforcement is not understood as only being something physical like head pats from a teacher etc. So there is much reward and reinforcement in doing buddhist practice, otherwise no one would do it. There is also much reward and reinforcement in doing heroin etc., although the negative long term consequences of course are very bad. A very important part of every CBT approach is therefore to do behavioral analysis including maintaining factors of symptoms of mental illnesses. Within all of psychiatry and psychotherapy there is no better approach in treating anxiety disorders like GAD, panic disorders, phobias, PTSD or depression than CBT.

[Rick]

Thanks for your postings, Toenail, it sounds like you know of what you speak.