Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

[Johnny Dangerous]

Why would you be closed soon? I really think some people are maybe overlooking the basic circumstances of the delta surge a bit.

A place that is all vaccinated people wearing masks is incredibly low risk. The lowest risk you can get without just going back to being isolated. We don’t know the prevalence of breakthrough infection quite yet, but it’s not expected to so huge as to force vaccinated people into lockdown.

There is a reason none of this is being mandated yet, or being mandated only piecemeal. At this point it is mostly about the unvaccinated filling up hospitals in specific areas, vaccinated people are not all the sudden at some massively increased risk for disease, and lots depends on dynamics in your particular area, as well as the overall behavior of the group of vaccinated people who is meeting.

Its distressing and quite confusing in some ways, but it is very different than the previous situation.

[Malcolm]

Its distressing and quite confusing in some ways, but it is very different than the previous situation.

The point is that with Delta, vaccinated people are likely contagious if infected. Since they are vectors of transmission, it is unwise to abandon masks indoors, and social distancing outdoors, even if vaccinated. This protects everyone. Who cares if it seems excessive?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Its distressing and quite confusing in some ways, but it is very different than the previous situation.

The point is that with Delta, vaccinated people are likely contagious if infected. Since they are vectors of transmission, it is unwise to abandon masks indoors, and social distancing outdoors, even if vaccinated. This protects everyone. Who cares if it seems excessive?

I don’t have an issue with masking, I think it’s a reasonable precaution, especially among people who are higher risk for breakthrough infection. The folks I practice with have chosen not to for now. I am personally ok with that too, but will change the second they want to.

I think that for many people there is a reasonable balance to be struck between safety and mental health, socializing, etc. I’ve been to some nice, small outdoor concerts recently where all that stuff was handled well.

[Malcolm]

Its distressing and quite confusing in some ways, but it is very different than the previous situation.

The point is that with Delta, vaccinated people are likely contagious if infected. Since they are vectors of transmission, it is unwise to abandon masks indoors, and social distancing outdoors, even if vaccinated. This protects everyone. Who cares if it seems excessive?

I don’t have an issue with masking, I think it’s a reasonable precaution, especially among people who are higher risk for breakthrough infection. The folks I practice with have chosen not to for now. I am personally ok with that too, but will change the second they want to.

I think that for many people there is a reasonable balance to be struck between safety and mental health, socializing, etc.

Since Trump, and because of him, the world is exponentially more dangerous now than it was say, six years ago.

[KeithA]

Why would you be closed soon? I really think some people are maybe overlooking the basic circumstances of the delta surge a bit

A place that is all vaccinated people wearing masks is incredibly low risk. We don’t know the prevalence of breakthrough infection quite yet, but it’s not expected to so huge as to force vaccinated people into lockdown.

There is a reason none of this is being mandated yet, or being mandated only piecemeal. At this point it is mostly about the unvaccinated filling up hospitals in specific areas, vaccinated people are not all the sudden at some massively increased risk for disease, and lots depends on dynamics in your particular area, as well as the overall behavior of the group of vaccinated people who is meeting.

Its distressing and quite confusing in some ways, but it is very different than the previous situation.

Oh, I completely agree. We are just trying to be good citizens. The top 5 states in vaccination rates are all here in New England. Connecticut, where is I live, is 4th. Basically, we are wearing masks to protect people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons (a very small amount of people), and anti-vaxers, I would feel completely comfortable practicing unmasked. Very few people are wearing them anywhere around here. We have a couple doctors on our Board of Trustees, and they generally fall on the side of caution.

I agree with this being very different than the previous situation. And will also freely admit i am have trouble finding any compassion for the folks who choose not get vaccinated.

More practice is necessary!

[Malcolm]

I...am have trouble finding any compassion for the folks who choose not get vaccinated.

You wear masks to protect them, right? Even though they are idiots? Well, that's compassion.

Anyhow, you should see the anti-vaxx shit show over on DW engaged.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Oh, I completely agree. We are just trying to be good citizens. The top 5 states in vaccination rates are all here in New England. Connecticut, where is I live, is 4th. Basically, we are wearing masks to protect people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons (a very small amount of people), and anti-vaxers, I would feel completely comfortable practicing unmasked. Very few people are wearing them anywhere around here. We have a couple doctors on our Board of Trustees, and they generally fall on the side of caution.

Yeah, honestly there is a spectrum of reasonable reactions/policies here, it is not a black and white thing. Another group at our Dharma center (book group) is choosing to continue on Zoom. I can see the rationale for both groups just fine. I became a sort of defacto organizer for the Puja group over the lockdowns, so I am trying to just check in periodically with people about how they are feeling and what they want to do. I am personally not going back to Zoom for now, period. I don't mind setting up a camera and mic for hybrid, but that's it.

I feel returning to it is completely unwarranted by the situation today (small group of relatively isolated vaccinated people meeting) and was somewhat annoying for me anyway because I have to constantly mute and unmute myself as the english umze, and manage Zoom mics, people coming into the meeting, etc.

If somehow the situation takes a huge turn for the worst, or people demand a return to Zoom, I am not sure what I will do.

I agree with this being very different than the previous situation. And will also freely admit i am have trouble finding any compassion for the folks who choose not get vaccinated.

More practice is necessary!

Same. Truthfully I'm irritated as shit about being asked to do stuff for people who refused to get vaccinated. It's the ethical thing to do, but a part of me feels pretty pissed, not gonna lie. I try to remember that (unlike the doofy media presentation) not all people refusing to get vaccinated are the same. In my state I think a chunk are people who are possibly undocumented, and many who are (understandably) wary of the government, etc. I have the sneaking suspicion that plenty of them are also just young people who don't give a crap because they are low risk. Sure it makes me mad, but I remember how much more clueless I was at age 23 about some things too. People at a certain age hardwired to think they are more invincible than they are. Of course I know "not all young people"..but if you look at he numbers of who is getting sick these days..

Wanna really get mad? Look at the people who working in nursing homes, critical care facilities etc. refusing to get vaccinated....ffs

Anyhow, you should see the anti-vaxx shit show over on DW engaged.

Like reading a bad Reddit group these days.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Speaking of which:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... np1taskbar

I know they are applying the precautionary principle due to the snot/viral load test, but my guess is that as things play out we will see that vaccinated people are just not spreading this very much. We will see.

[Malcolm]

Speaking of which:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... np1taskbar

I know they are applying the precautionary principle due to the snot/viral load test, but my guess is that as things play out we will see that vaccinated people are just not spreading this very much. We will see.

Ummm....Ptown?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/c ... e-cod.html

[Johnny Dangerous]

Speaking of which:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... np1taskbar

I know they are applying the precautionary principle due to the snot/viral load test, but my guess is that as things play out we will see that vaccinated people are just not spreading this very much. We will see.

Ummm....Ptown?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/c ... e-cod.html

I can't read the article because I don't subscribe, but from what I've read that was an atypical study demographically - big group of people flocking to one area. It might mean something substantial on the larger scale or it might not, just like the viral load thing. Another issue is, AFAIK a vaccinated testing positive for Covid does not necessarily imply tranmissability.

https://sfist.com/2021/07/22/delta-not- ... dnt-count/

Yes, the Delta variant is more contagious, but experts say there's little evidence so far that it's infecting more vaccinated people than would likely have been infected, statistically speaking, by any of the earlier variants. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines also both seem to be highly effective at protecting people against getting sick from the Delta variant, but maybe only 80% effective at preventing infection completely.

BTW, It's people like Paul Offit saying stuff like this, not some kook:

"I think we are misusing the term breakthrough," he says. "If someone who is fully vaccinated is subsequently hospitalized or killed by the virus, that's a breakthrough case."

he New York Times also discussed breakthrough cases today, reporting on a widely talked-about outbreak of cases that came out of Provincetown, Massachusetts, where an estimated 66,000 mostly gay people gathered into crowded spaces over the week of July Fourth. Around San Francisco, an unknown number of people who returned from Provincetown were infected and some anecdotally became sick — but the Provincetown Board of Health has only recorded 256 cases among the vaccinated, with 66 among people who then traveled home out of state (though this seems like a likely undercount). Even if the true number is three times that, it still represents a relatively small number among the tens of thousands of vaccinated people partying in Provincetown that week.

Etc...so, no, these small scale studies and findings are not proof of widespread infection among the vaccinated, and indeed so far there is no data for that. Might there be? Sure, we will have to see. Is it prudent to wear masks in mixed areas...yeah, I mean, to a degree it always was.

[Malcolm]

It’s the sole reason the CDC revised their guidance.

Speaking of which:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... np1taskbar

I know they are applying the precautionary principle due to the snot/viral load test, but my guess is that as things play out we will see that vaccinated people are just not spreading this very much. We will see.

Ummm....Ptown?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/c ... e-cod.html

I can't read the article because I don't subscribe, but from what I've read that was an atypical study demographically - big group of people flocking to one area. It might mean something substantial on the larger scale or it might not, just like the viral load thing. Another issue is, AFAIK a vaccinated testing positive for Covid does not necessarily imply tranmissability.

https://sfist.com/2021/07/22/delta-not- ... dnt-count/

Yes, the Delta variant is more contagious, but experts say there's little evidence so far that it's infecting more vaccinated people than would likely have been infected, statistically speaking, by any of the earlier variants. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines also both seem to be highly effective at protecting people against getting sick from the Delta variant, but maybe only 80% effective at preventing infection completely.

BTW, It's people like Paul Offit saying stuff like this, not some kook:

"I think we are misusing the term breakthrough," he says. "If someone who is fully vaccinated is subsequently hospitalized or killed by the virus, that's a breakthrough case."

he New York Times also discussed breakthrough cases today, reporting on a widely talked-about outbreak of cases that came out of Provincetown, Massachusetts, where an estimated 66,000 mostly gay people gathered into crowded spaces over the week of July Fourth. Around San Francisco, an unknown number of people who returned from Provincetown were infected and some anecdotally became sick — but the Provincetown Board of Health has only recorded 256 cases among the vaccinated, with 66 among people who then traveled home out of state (though this seems like a likely undercount). Even if the true number is three times that, it still represents a relatively small number among the tens of thousands of vaccinated people partying in Provincetown that week.

Etc...so, no, these small scale studies and findings are not proof of widespread infection among the vaccinated, and indeed so far there is no data for that. Might there be? Sure, we will have to see. Is it prudent to wear masks in mixed areas...yeah, I mean, to a degree it always was.

[Johnny Dangerous]

It’s the sole reason the CDC revised their guidance.

Right, and the CDC is not saying they believe there is or will be widespread infection among the vaccinated. Rather they are saying that there is some evidence that vaccinated people may spread it more easily than they previously thought. Those are two different things.

AFAIK the scientific community still does not think, nor is the evidence for large amounts of breakthrough infections beyond what is expected for where the estimates of vaccine efficacy are right now. And once again, even people like Paul Offit (who if anything is quite cautious and conservative on this stuff) are saying that calling every positive case in a vaccinated person a "breakthrough" is probably inappropriate.

Like I said,the CDC following the cautionary principle does not necessarily carry with it all these implications that some people seem to think it does.

I'm happy to change my opinion as the evidence changes.

[KeithA]

I...am have trouble finding any compassion for the folks who choose not get vaccinated.

You wear masks to protect them, right? Even though they are idiots? Well, that's compassion.

Anyhow, you should see the anti-vaxx shit show over on DW engaged.

I am sure there is a spectrum of reasons. We tend focus on the ones dying so they can “own the libs”. Yeah, idiots. But even them, maybe even especially them, need compassion, not anger. Tough sledding, though.

Unpopular opinion for another day: Engaged Buddhism is just virtue signaling. I won’t be venturing over there any time soon.

[Malcolm]

I...am have trouble finding any compassion for the folks who choose not get vaccinated.

You wear masks to protect them, right? Even though they are idiots? Well, that's compassion.

Anyhow, you should see the anti-vaxx shit show over on DW engaged.

I am sure there is a spectrum of reasons. We tend focus on the ones dying so they can “own the libs”. Yeah, idiots. But even them, maybe even especially them, need compassion, not anger. Tough sledding, though.

Unpopular opinion for another day: Engaged Buddhism is just virtue signaling. I won’t be venturing over there any time soon.

There is nothing engaged about DW engaged, it mainly a platform for Nicholas Weeks to spew far right wing bullshit.

[Malcolm]

China Covid: Concerns grow as Delta outbreak spreads
Authorities are carrying out mass testing and have imposed sweeping lockdowns across 15 provinces.
Read in BBC News: https://apple.news/AmweK72XZQye1BqkbDpnpHQ

[Seitaka]

I understand it: my body, my choice. Bodily autonomy and freedom of choice should be upheld at all costs because once rights and freedoms are taken, even if they are taken for a supposedly good cause or safety, they are rarely given back and therefore in the future can be subject to abuse.

Furthermore the institutions which are supporting the infringement of that bodily autonomy and freedom of choice (various governments, mass media, big tech, big corporations, etc.) are known to promote values, actions, and ways of thinking completely contrary to the Dharma, for example hedonism, licentiousness, materialism, and even sometimes outright hatred toward groups that they do not like. As such I am not sure why any Buddhist would place his trust in these institutions.

[narhwal90]

I got vaccinated and conform to mask policy- I don't want to be the guy who catches covid and brings it home to my family, or elsewhere for that matter. How would that freedom feel if your kid caught covid from you and died on a ventilator in the hospital?

[Malcolm]

I understand it: my body, my choice.

I suppose you support abortion rights as well, correct? It is after all the slogan of the pro-choice movement.

Now when it comes to choice about whether to be vaccinated or not:

State laws establish vaccination requirements for school children. These laws often apply not only to children attending public schools but also to those attending private schools and day care facilities. States may also require immunization of healthcare workers and of patients/residents of healthcare facilities.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-manage ... index.html

Bodily autonomy and freedom of choice should be upheld at all costs because once rights and freedoms are taken, even if they are taken for a supposedly good cause or safety, they are rarely given back and therefore in the future can be subject to abuse.

This is false. For example, as above, all children in public school in the USA are required to receive vaccinations for mumps, measles, etc. Of course, if their parents choose not to school them in the public school system, they are free not to. But most schools require these vaccines for children, whether public or private.

Furthermore the institutions which are supporting the infringement of that bodily autonomy and freedom of choice (various governments, mass media, big tech, big corporations, etc.) are known to promote values, actions, and ways of thinking completely contrary to the Dharma, for example hedonism, licentiousness, materialism, and even sometimes outright hatred toward groups that they do not like. As such I am not sure why any Buddhist would place his trust in these institutions.

This is not the case. When, during the Buddha's day, monks committed civil crimes, they were turned over the civil authorities. The world at large has always promoted values, actions, and ways of thinking that are contrary to the Dharma. But we live in the world with other people. Therefore we have to get along with other people who are not Buddhists. This means we have to accommodate and adjust to the presence of governments, media, tech, large corporations.

If you live in a democracy, which you I assume you do, you should participate in your government. Otherwise, your voice will not be heard.

If you are not vaccinated against covid19, not only are being you irresponsible to your fellow citizens, but you are being stupid about your own health.

[Malcolm]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/busi ... ndate.html

Tyson Foods, one of the nation’s largest meat processors, said on Tuesday that it would require vaccines for its U.S. workers — about half of whom remain unvaccinated.

The mandate will extend to employees in its offices and in the field. The poultry supplier is requiring its leadership team to be vaccinated by Sept. 24 and the rest of its office workers by Oct. 1. Frontline employees have until Nov. 1 to be fully inoculated, extra time the company is providing because there are “significantly more frontline team members than office workers who still need to be vaccinated,” a Tyson spokesman said.

Good. More companies need to follow suit.

[PadmaVonSamba]

At the level of microbiology, the concept of “Bodily autonomy” is bullshit. It means absolutely nothing to a virus. It’s merely taking a virus out of the scientific/biological context and dressing it up as some kind of philosophical/political concept.

For the same reasons, if there was such a thing as “bodily autonomy” at that level, you could simply refuse to ever get sick, age or die. Then there’d be no point in the Prince Sidhartha ever leaving the palace and becoming a Buddha.