Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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dharmafootsteps
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Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by dharmafootsteps »

I’m wondering if everyone else is finding that there are significant numbers of anti-vaxxers in their western dharma communities. I’ve been increasingly surprised over the past year and a half by not only the extent of anti-vaxx sentiment within the Dzogchen Community, but also the extremity of that sentiment. Some people are simply too distrustful to take the vaccine, but I’m also seeing significant numbers of people with really really wild conspiratorial views, and even sadder, aggressively haranguing vajra siblings about it.

Unfortunately this isn’t just limited to a few crazies, but includes respected members of the Community, people in positions of authority, long time dedicated practitioners etc (admittedly the views and behaviour among these groups are at least less extreme). The Community WhatsApp group in my own country has mostly just become a vehicle for spreading anti-vaxx media.

I imagine the Dzogchen Community is a bit worse than most others, given that most teachers have taken the vaccine themselves, vaccinated their monks and nuns where possible, and many have encouraged their followers to take it. Without the guidance of a living teacher I guess it allows for more flourishing of wild ideas.

Are people seeing this sort of thing in other sanghas just now?
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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dharmafootsteps wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:58 pm I’m wondering if everyone else is finding that there are significant numbers of anti-vaxxers in their western dharma communities. I’ve been increasingly surprised over the past year and a half by not only the extent of anti-vaxx sentiment within the Dzogchen Community, but also the extremity of that sentiment. Some people are simply too distrustful to take the vaccine, but I’m also seeing significant numbers of people with really really wild conspiratorial views, and even sadder, aggressively haranguing vajra siblings about it.

Unfortunately this isn’t just limited to a few crazies, but includes respected members of the Community, people in positions of authority, long time dedicated practitioners etc (admittedly the views and behaviour among these groups are at least less extreme). The Community WhatsApp group in my own country has mostly just become a vehicle for spreading anti-vaxx media.

I imagine the Dzogchen Community is a bit worse than most others, given that most teachers have taken the vaccine themselves, vaccinated their monks and nuns where possible, and many have encouraged their followers to take it. Without the guidance of a living teacher I guess it allows for more flourishing of wild ideas.

Are people seeing this sort of thing in other sanghas just now?
It's all over the place really, there are some deep (and understandable, just in terms of having empathy with your Vajra siblings) issues with distrust of authority, discontent with the status quo, general fatigue with the ineptitude of government and public health, issues with modern medicine etc. People have their limitations. I think quite honestly part of what you are seeing here is also rough cultural proximity to the New Age movement and "woo anon". That is not to say the teachings in the DC themselves relate at all to those things, just that many of people tend to straddle those worlds. There is plenty of crossover between New Age and Dzogchen groups that I have seen, both Bonpo and Buddhist, but especially Bonpo, if I'm honest.

My in person Sangha (Non-DC) has none of it, everyone there is pretty old and I think made the decision early on (correctly in my opinion) that the risks that came with getting the disease carried much greater risks than those that come with getting the vaccine. The place I've seen it most around me is young people at the college I attend.

I've given up talking to such people, now that I have relatives dead of Covid, know one person who almost died, and know of other acquaintances who died...I am not even interested in convincing them of anything. I mean...Elio died of Covid too. At this point it's not going to be arguments that convince them (if they are capable of being convinced, I suspect plenty are not), but life experience with getting Covid, seeing others get it, etc. People are also generally really bad at understanding or evaluating published science, or understanding relative risks, making discussions on the subject completely pointless, because most of the "talking points" hinge on said poor understandings.

I mean, I hate to say it but all you can do is try to ignore it and not let it drive a wedge more than it already has. I have a couple family members that have gone this route, it's tough because I am not sure there is anything you can do but ignore it, try not to let it eat at you, and be there on the off chance they ever become interested in a real conversation on the matter, instead of all the crazed speculation, gossip, and titillating fantasies that make up the anti-vaxx "position" such as it is.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:58 pm I’ve been increasingly surprised over the past year and a half by not only the extent of anti-vaxx sentiment within the Dzogchen Community, but also the extremity of that sentiment.
These people are idiots. I know people who have departed from Tenerife because of this issue, because they do not feel safe around the anti-vaxx crowd.

Some people are simply too distrustful to take the vaccine, but I’m also seeing significant numbers of people with really really wild conspiratorial views, and even sadder, aggressively haranguing vajra siblings about it.
They can f*&k off.
Unfortunately this isn’t just limited to a few crazies, but includes respected members of the Community, people in positions of authority, long time dedicated practitioners etc (admittedly the views and behaviour among these groups are at least less extreme). The Community WhatsApp group in my own country has mostly just become a vehicle for spreading anti-vaxx media.
You should not follow it then.
Without the guidance of a living teacher I guess it allows for more flourishing of wild ideas.
ChNN would have been first in line. That's how stupid these people are. They all seems to forget the extreme protection ChNN was afforded from the flue in 2017 and onward. 2015/2016 was really the last year you could go up, greet him and shake his hand.

Their idea, as dumb as it is, is to do lots of protector pujas, as if that is going to protect them from getting covid21 [Delta]. So dumb.

Yes, do protector pujas, but also get a f76cking vaccine shot.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Norwegian »

Anybody who is an anti-vaxxer, says COVID-19 isn't real, and so on, is totally uneducated, whether formally or informally, and have the intellectual and cognitive capacity of a rotten tree stump riddled with worms.

HH Sakya Trichen got vaccinated, HH Dalai Lama got vaccinated, etc. These are all gurus of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu. They are good examples for others, and so it should be easy just on that basis alone to go get vaccinated. Many more great masters got vaccinated, and urges others to do so as well.

Then of course there's the science aspect of it, and I haven't seen a single anti-vaxxer or COVID-19 denier who are capable of really arguing against the science and actual experts, such as clinicians and physicians with experience of treating COVID-19, or the virologists, microbiologists, epidemiologists, immunologists, and pharmacologists who works with this issue. The whole "Look into it" or "Do your research" lines they repeat again and again, means you should read some conspiracy theory nonsense on Facebook, and then you magically know better than experts with one or more PhDs and decades of experience. It's insane.

Honestly, I find the case of COVID-19 and SARS-CoV-2 to be exceptionally easy to deal with personally. The data is clear. The advice for how to deal with it is also clear. Unvaccinated people are vastly more unprotected than those who are vaccinated, and if they get infected, the damage to their bodies due to COVID-19 is significantly higher than what vaccinated people have to deal with, comparatively speaking. There's also that whole thing about dying, which is also important to consider.

Right now I have attained 33% protection against the Delta variant, thanks to having received 1 shot of Pfizer, on July 22. In 8-12 weeks I will get my 2nd, and then some weeks after that, my protection level against Delta will increase much more.

And yet I still wear a mask, even if I am vaccinated, and I still socially distance, since not only can I get sick, but if I do, even if I am vaccinated, I can spread the virus further. So, if you want to use Buddhist talking points, there's that whole compassion and caring about others aspect which is important to consider. And I would hope that whoever is in the Dzogchen Community are capable of considering this.

We are now at the Delta variant of this virus, and looking at the development, I wouldn't be surprised if we get Epsilon variant, and even more than that. Anybody who are anti-vaxxers, refusing to wear masks, refusing to socially distance etc. are playing a kind of Russian roulette that they really don't want to lose, because worse variants than Delta will likely straight out kill them, regardless of age.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Malcolm »

Norwegian wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:15 pm So, if you want to use Buddhist talking points, there's that whole compassion and caring about others aspect which is important to consider. And I would hope that whoever is in the Dzogchen Community are capable of considering this.
There has always been a deficit of compassion in the DC, not in Rinpoche, but in many of his students, especially the ones who fantasize that they are not Buddhists.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:21 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:15 pm So, if you want to use Buddhist talking points, there's that whole compassion and caring about others aspect which is important to consider. And I would hope that whoever is in the Dzogchen Community are capable of considering this.
There has always been a deficit of compassion in the DC, not in Rinpoche, but in many of his students, especially the ones who fantasize that they are not Buddhists.
It is very sad. Especially when thinking about Rinpoche and what he taught. It should be impossible to forget about compassion after having received teachings from him...
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Ayu »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:58 pm I’m wondering if everyone else is finding that there are significant numbers of anti-vaxxers in their western dharma communities. I’ve been increasingly surprised over the past year and a half by not only the extent of anti-vaxx sentiment within the Dzogchen Community, but also the extremity of that sentiment. Some people are simply too distrustful to take the vaccine, but I’m also seeing significant numbers of people with really really wild conspiratorial views, and even sadder, aggressively haranguing vajra siblings about it.

Unfortunately this isn’t just limited to a few crazies, but includes respected members of the Community, people in positions of authority, long time dedicated practitioners etc (admittedly the views and behaviour among these groups are at least less extreme). The Community WhatsApp group in my own country has mostly just become a vehicle for spreading anti-vaxx media.

I imagine the Dzogchen Community is a bit worse than most others, given that most teachers have taken the vaccine themselves, vaccinated their monks and nuns where possible, and many have encouraged their followers to take it. Without the guidance of a living teacher I guess it allows for more flourishing of wild ideas.

Are people seeing this sort of thing in other sanghas just now?
In my own sangha I see only a few guys and gals who seemingly don't like to believe in covid anymore. Fortunately no authorities are affected.
But in the wider field of spiritual persons and political interested alternatively living persons I observe a community of anti-vaxxers. They believe mainstream is evil and covid is just a lie from the pharma industry.

My best friend since 40 years became more and more sectarian over these 1,5 years. Now we reached a point where she's trying to convince me about the urgency of the 'vaccine problem'. She sees a big conspiracy coming from the pharma lobby, the mainstream media, the scientific institutes and the politicians as well. She's devastated how I can ignore all of this information. And she's really, really excited.

To me it seems, she's lost in a political sect, completely deluded. I'm very sad, because I lost touch to my oldest friend.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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I lead a small sangha in Colorado. We meet in a good-sized, dedicated shrineroom in our home. Several weeks ago we began having in-person group practices after an 18-month Covid-19 hiatus. At one of the first ones, a man in his 40s confided in my wife as he was leaving, sans mask, that he was not vaccinated. The next day my wife told me about this. (Thankfully she allowed me to get a good night's sleep.) I thought about it for a day and then wrote the man telling him that we could not host him in our home until or unless he was vaccinated. Being the leader and host of this group, which includes several elderly and not so healthy (myself included), I felt I had a responsibility to the other sangha members to insure everyone who came was vaccinated. Of course I got a long email back explaining how the vaccine is experimental, how it might cause this and that down the line, how the man was a natural health practitioner, yudda, yudda, yudda. He knew that may "heart was in the right place, but..." The kicker was that he said, since all the rest of us were vaccinated, he didn't need to be. I thanked him for his long reply and said that I was sorry but that I was sticking to my decision. I did not try to reason with him.

As part of this man's email, he told me that, when announcing any future Dharma events, I should be sure to let people know that vaccination was necessary to attend. I hadn't previously thought of that and it seemed a reasonable suggestion. So the next time I announced a practice session (Yuthog Nyingthig tshog), I included a line that vaccination was mandatory. I posted this announcement on my Facebook page and sent it out to may email list of sangha members. I also copied and posted it on the Yuthog Nyingthig Sangha Facebook page. Of course, I immediately was called to task on the Yuthog Nyingthig Sangha page for creating a two-tiered Dharma system, for disallowing some people to practice the Dharma, for being unethical, unBuddhist, etc.

Most of the anti-vaxx arguments I hear from Buddhists in our area revolve around the vaccination still being only experimental and worrying about future negative health consequences. It seems to me this is a very Hinayana perspective. (Didn't say Theravadin.) Getting a certain percentage of people vaccinated was the only way we were going to put the kibbosh on this pandemic. (Now I'm afraid it's too late.) So I was happy to get the vaccine even knowing it had not yet gotten full FDA approval. This seemed the Bodhisatvic thing to do. If I got a negative outcome but, because of achieving community immunity, the pandemic was reversed, that seemed like a the right thing to do. Something about putting others' welfare before one's own. I think I've heard something about that. In addition, like Malcolm said, all my Teachers happily got vaccinated at the first opportunity.

In any case, it is unfortunate to learn that a certain proportion of (mostly younger) Buddhists are refusing to be vaccinated. Nyug-mai du, the degenerate age.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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My center is working on making our programs "hybrid".

For practical purposes this is a good alternative for anyone who 1) won't get vaccinated -or on the other side- 2) is concerned about in person participation with other vaccinated individuals. I can actually get why some would feel this way, particularly people who are immune suppressed etc.

My small Puja group is all vaccinated and so far has elected not to wear masks, as it is comparable to getting together with vaccinated people in the home, etc. Everyone is in a higher risk group than me though, so I will go with whatever the other folks want to do.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by mirrormind »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:29 pm comparable to getting together with vaccinated people in the home, etc.
While certainly a safe decision before delta, delta has really changed the game by outmaneouvering the vaccines to a much larger degree. Especially with higher risk people, you should make sure everyone is up to speed with the latest developments. What was true a couple of weeks ago is not true now. Even if we have not been put back to square one, we are not that far off. Of course, everyone will need to make their own risk assessment, but the respiratory, vascular and neurological manifestations of covid are no joke even if they only last for three weeks in your own bed.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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mirrormind wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:29 pm comparable to getting together with vaccinated people in the home, etc.
While certainly a safe decision before delta, delta has really changed the game by outmaneouvering the vaccines to a much larger degree. Especially with higher risk people, you should make sure everyone is up to speed with the latest developments. What was true a couple of weeks ago is not true now. Even if we have not been put back to square one, we are not that far off. Of course, everyone will need to make their own risk assessment, but the respiratory, vascular and neurological manifestations of covid are no joke even if they only last for three weeks in your own bed.
AFAIK the preliminary data on transmissability of delta among the vaccinated is just that - preliminary data relating to tests of viral load in people's snot, and some data from a rather atypical group of vaccinated who got infected. It is uncertain what the real-world manifestation of these things is at this point in time, and public health people are being cautious (rightfully so) that it means what they think it might. AFAIK the manifestation of Covid in vaccinated people is usually mild to moderate, however just the like the disease when one is not vaccinated, the risks go up with age and co morbidity - as do the risks of breakthrough infections themselves, they are just a lot less than for the unvaccinated.

They also don't really know to what degree the disease outmaneuvers vaccines yet, and what they do know indicates it still very much works against severe disease, even in those cases.

In short, the recent suggested masking changes are mostly about unvaccinated people not getting sick, and mainly would have an effect in public areas where both groups might be mixing. To the best of my knowledge small groups of vaccinated people meeting is still relatively low risk, but of course a lot has to do with what those people's risk is generally speaking. Everyone has to make their own cost benefit analysis there.
the respiratory, vascular and neurological manifestations of covid are no joke even if they only last for three weeks in your own bed.
The hospitalization data bares out the fact that the effects of a breakthrough infection are typically mild to moderate.

My wife and I both likely had it, are both vaccinated, and I have family that are dead from it, I don't need a lecture, and I take the necessary precautions. I also stay informed on the science, and am familiar enough with what is actually "evidence based" decision-making to parse out what it is actually evidence-based, and what is mainly public policy (often justifiably so, I am not complaining) which is based on the precautionary principle.
What was true a couple of weeks ago is not true now. Even if we have not been put back to square one, we are not that far off. .
Demonstrably untrue in my estimation, take a closer look at the CDC data, and if nothing else look at the comparative death rates. I agree the situation is concerning and difficult on a number of levels, but being close to "back to square one" is pure hyperbole. This is now a mostly preventable and far less deadly disease, -if- more people would get vaccinated. Yes, that is even true with delta. Hell, it's far less deaths even if no one else gets vaccinated, but let's hope they do.

Just find a few histograms or graphs of cases and deaths, the idea that we are back to Winter 2020 or something is alarmist and unprdductive. I mean anything is possible, and things can change tomorrow, but it's important to be as accurate as we can be with data on this stuff - especially if we want to not sew further distrust in the notion that getting vaccinated is the main way out of this, which it is. We have vaccinated so many of the people who would otherwise be dying, this is a serious victory, and a large part of the reason the deaths have gone down so drastically - many of the most vulnerable are protected.

Approximately half the country is now at greatly decreased risk of severe disease and death from Covid, as well as being at significantly increased risk of contracting it in the first place - obviously the risk is less the more people around you are vaccinated, the more people around them are, etc. Painting this as "back to square one" is patently untrue.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracke ... csovertime

Here are some graphs you can adjust with different demographics.

Just came across a good article on the subject too:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-o ... =TNY_Daily
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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pemachophel wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:20 pm It seems to me this is a very Hinayana perspective. (Didn't say Theravadin.) Getting a certain percentage of people vaccinated was the only way we were going to put the kibbosh on this pandemic. (Now I'm afraid it's too late.) So I was happy to get the vaccine even knowing it had not yet gotten full FDA approval. This seemed the Bodhisatvic thing to do. If I got a negative outcome but, because of achieving community immunity, the pandemic was reversed, that seemed like a the right thing to do. Something about putting others' welfare before one's own. I think I've heard something about that.
I really think this is spot on.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Fortunately I haven't yet run into this problem. But my local sangha is still pretty much just meeting through Zoom. Also, it is almost entirely made up of older folks who got the vaccine as soon as they could. This issue might present itself after we start doing things in person again.

It wouldn't surprise me if our parent sangha has had any of these issues, but I haven't heard anything. It has more of a variety of age groups. They have done some in person gatherings, but the number allowed to participate in person has still been restricted (and required vaccination). Most members of the sangha are still participating through Zoom, whether they're vaccinated or not. Actually, one of the best things to come out of the pandemic has been the ability for my sangha and other connected sanghas to participate and receive teachings from the parent sangha through Zoom. As time goes on, no matter what happens with the virus and the vaccine, I hope there will continue to be an opportunity to participate this way.

I have noticed that the anti-vaxx sentiment has been widespread among the New Age and yoga crowds, so it doesn't surprise me that Buddhist sanghas might be experiencing a similar problem, especially with younger people (I'm 28 btw). Where I live these sentiments are rampant in people outside of my sangha. Honestly, as much as I have wanted people my age to join my local sangha, I'm pretty sure the few that might join would be quite likely to hold these sentiments (along with a general contrarian attitude towards perceived authority and tradition), which makes me somewhat relieved that my sangha doesn't have to deal with the drama that these sentiments would bring. But it frustrates me that it seems like I'm the only person of this age group in the area that has any interest in being part of a Buddhist sangha.

One person I met recently (who makes a big deal about meditating a lot) told me this about the vaccine, why he wouldn't take it, and what he thinks of the scientific community: "I feel strongly that the scientific establishment is just as corrupt as the legacy media, government and other centers of power on this planet. So I don't trust them... I believe science is continual questioning, not obedience to expert authority."

While he's right that science is about always asking questions and learning more (through the scientific method), continual questioning clearly means a kind of cynical contrarianism to him, not any actual concern with truth. I think this exemplifies the problem here, and why the vaccine has become such a large issue for so many people, when it should be an easy decision to just go ahead and get it.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Could it be not recognized fear? An example of holding on ideas/opinions due to underlying fear?

This virus is teaching the interconnectedness of us, the dependence and it makes no any differences, something what we do in our delusions. It doesn't like you, they more than me or he/she at all.

So if this virus is not teaching we need to take the vaccin or more complex variation will follow ( there is already Delta +) and hit eveyone, then I don't know it anymore. As well for the small group who cannot be vaccinated due to health problems ( or reactions like anaphylactic shock..) we need to take the vaccin to protect.

This virus is as well teaching the illusion of pride, greed....

"If you like to be selfish, do it good and take care of all" H H Dalai Lama
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Giovanni »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:21 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:15 pm So, if you want to use Buddhist talking points, there's that whole compassion and caring about others aspect which is important to consider. And I would hope that whoever is in the Dzogchen Community are capable of considering this.
There has always been a deficit of compassion in the DC, not in Rinpoche, but in many of his students, especially the ones who fantasize that they are not Buddhists.
This is the elefante nella stanza… Dzogchen attracts certain groups of people. The positive side is that they are often prepared to really go for it “in this lifetime.” The downside is that some of them are unstable..they want to avoid discipline and social normals. They have some ideas about “crazy wisdom” which are mostly a fantasy. I think they are a minority, but a noisy minority.
Last edited by Giovanni on Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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I presume it is all a part of the conspirtuality movement that is invading the sometimes dharma-adjacent New Age culture.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Genjo Conan »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:29 pm My center is working on making our programs "hybrid".

For practical purposes this is a good alternative for anyone who 1) won't get vaccinated -or on the other side- 2) is concerned about in person participation with other vaccinated individuals. I can actually get why some would feel this way, particularly people who are immune suppressed etc.
This is what my temple is doing as well. The leadership is slowly reopening the temple to in-person practice--there's been a soft reopening over the summer, e.g. to gardening groups and administrative committees, all meeting outdoors and with no more than 5-6 people--leading up to a resumption of formal practice, tentatively scheduled for the week after Labor Day. Everyone entering the grounds must be fully vaccinated, and we're requiring proof of vaccination. We're also doing everything by Zoom as well, and will do so for the conceivable future.

Interestingly, we don't have any vocal anti-vaxxers, which somewhat surprises me: I live in the Bay Area, so...I think I'm right to be surprised. Instead, it's the immune-compromised folks--those who cannot receive the vaccines--who are most exercised about the in-person vaccine requirement. They feel that, since they cannot be vaccinated, requiring the vaccine is unduly discriminatory and creates a two-tiered dharma.

I understand their frustration, but given how many members of our community are at high risk, and considering that even vaccinated people seem to be able to transmit the Delta variant, I think the temple leadership are right not to take chances.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Malcolm »

Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:26 pm They feel that, since they cannot be vaccinated, requiring the vaccine is unduly discriminatory and creates a two-tiered dharma.
Nonsense, your center's leaders are protecting their health.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Genjo Conan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:58 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:26 pm They feel that, since they cannot be vaccinated, requiring the vaccine is unduly discriminatory and creates a two-tiered dharma.
Nonsense, your center's leaders are protecting their health.
Yeah, I agree. I fully support the low-and-slow reopening plans.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by KeithA »

In our US based Sangha, we have seen no resistance whatsoever. Our Sangha regulars are all vaccinated, and we have been complying with all Federal and State guidance. We require vaccination for in-person practice, and remote practice is available for people who can't get to the Center, and for folks who can't or won't get vaccinated.

Based on the latest CDC recommendation, we are back to masks for in-person practice, regardless of vaccination status. Seems like a bit of overkill to me. But, it is consistent with how we have been handling things for the last year. I suspect we will be closed soon.

It's kind of ironic that the people who didn't want to be part of the "vaccination experiment" are now members of the control group. And the bodies will begin to pile up again. Play stupid games, get stupid prizes.

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