Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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narhwal90 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:17 pm I got vaccinated and conform to mask policy- I don't want to be the guy who catches covid and brings it home to my family, or elsewhere for that matter. How would that freedom feel if your kid caught covid from you and died on a ventilator in the hospital?
That's what I am, freedom of choice, choice to vaccinate and mask up or freedom not to. The other side doesn't seem so keen on freedom of choice.

As to death, I am reminded of Buddha's "thousands" verse from the Dhammapada, that it is better to live in wisdom and strength for a day than a thousand years in ignorance and lack of self control, namely that the quality of life is more important than its length. In this scenario I'd say it is better to live in freedom and fearlessness for a day than in bondage and fear for a thousand years.
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:46 pm This is false. For example, as above, all children in public school in the USA are required to receive vaccinations for mumps, measles, etc. Of course, if their parents choose not to school them in the public school system, they are free not to. But most schools require these vaccines for children, whether public or private.
Your example doesn't falsify the statement that freedoms once given away are often never given back and the potential that has for future abuse by institutions which may become or are already corrupt, as is a near constant trend throughout the history of mankind.
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:46 pmThis is not the case. When, during the Buddha's day, monks committed civil crimes, they were turned over the civil authorities. The world at large has always promoted values, actions, and ways of thinking that are contrary to the Dharma. But we live in the world with other people. Therefore we have to get along with other people who are not Buddhists. This means we have to accommodate and adjust to the presence of governments, media, tech, large corporations.
A crime isn't really the same as bodily autonomy regarding vaccination is it? And "accommodate and adjust" to these institutions isn't really the same as blind trust and obedience either, which seems to be more the case in this scenario. But let's make it analogy of a single man rather than a conglomeration of interrelated powerful institutions, why should a Buddhist have faith in the words of or obey a man whose thoughts/speech/actions are completely contrary to the Dharma and, worst of all, is known to frequently lie?
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:18 pm At the level of microbiology, the concept of “Bodily autonomy” is bullshit. It means absolutely nothing to a virus. It’s merely taking a virus out of the scientific/biological context and dressing it up as some kind of philosophical/political concept.

For the same reasons, if there was such a thing as “bodily autonomy” at that level, you could simply refuse to ever get sick, age or die. Then there’d be no point in the Prince Sidhartha ever leaving the palace and becoming a Buddha.
Absolutely agree. The whole idea that something which is constantly changing and has no permanence can still somehow have “autonomy” makes no sense in terms of Dharma. We rise from Shunyata and if we have the karmic fortune to find a teacher we can find our way off the wheel. Neither autonomy nor determinism has any relevance here.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:56 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:18 pm At the level of microbiology, the concept of “Bodily autonomy” is bullshit. It means absolutely nothing to a virus. It’s merely taking a virus out of the scientific/biological context and dressing it up as some kind of philosophical/political concept.

For the same reasons, if there was such a thing as “bodily autonomy” at that level, you could simply refuse to ever get sick, age or die. Then there’d be no point in the Prince Sidhartha ever leaving the palace and becoming a Buddha.
Absolutely agree. The whole idea that something which is constantly changing and has no permanence can still somehow have “autonomy” makes no sense in terms of Dharma. We rise from Shunyata and if we have the karmic fortune to find a teacher we can find our way off the wheel. Neither autonomy nor determinism has any relevance here.
Bodily autonomy would be the idea that I have the right to choose what I do with my own body. For example, if I told you that you must get a tattoo on your forehead for the safety of the community and that refusal to do so would lead to punishment of some sort, that would be an infringement of your bodily autonomy. And let's say you agreed, surrendering your right of choice relating to your body could then be used in others ways if a powerful institution so desired since such a precedent has been set by your willing concession, so now you have to get your ears removed for the safety of the community or we will punish you. See how important freedom of choice and bodily autonomy is?
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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There is already a precedent for things like schools and employers requiring vaccination, and has been for a long time.

If you want the freedom to not mask up around my unvaccinated kids or my immune suppressed mother, then you have the freedom to face a smack down from me and whoever else. Seriously, that's some selfish nonsense.

I actually care quite a bit about Covid, civil liberties and privacy. I am strongly opposed to the idea of vaccine passports for daily life (which is a different animal than institutional verification) and financially support groups that fight against things like this. I find it amazing how all the sudden the Right Wing is so up in arms about their "rights", but don't generally know squat about them and instead do things like pass dumb laws prohibiting masks in schools. So it's a stopped clock thing, sometimes people who are generally full of it are correct that "rights" are at stake here, but it doesn't mean they have a good argument about the rest of it, and often they don't.

There is a balance to be struck here. I am not for vaccination mandated by the government, and I can't imagine the legal argument for literal forced vaccination. However, it is only natural and sane that institutions continue to require vaccination for highly contagious disease. That said, I saw in the news today that New York just said they are introducing a vaccine passport that will be required for (at least, I guess) restaurants, entertainment venues, and gyms.

I am personally completely opposed to such measures, and if and when it's implemented in my state, I would do everything in my power to oppose it, and continue to support the major civil liberties organizations who are opposed - who I note are generally on the left, by the way. Further, it amazes me that more people who call themselves progressive or liberal do not see the issues with this sort of thing, so here is the EFF and NYCLU on the subject:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/v ... p-inequity
https://action.aclu.org/send-message/pr ... -passports

As far as the hardships of it being required in schools etc., my feeling is too bad, get over it or adapt, it's nothing new. Beyond that, hey, maybe I have some common ground with people I normally think are full of it (and still do, mostly). Like 9-11, Covid has been used as an excuse for all kinds of nonsense, and I actually agree that there are some concerning issues around civil liberties and personal freedom. There are values other than safety.

It's still a poor decision to not get vaccinated (to put it mildly), on a bunch of levels.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:56 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:18 pm At the level of microbiology, the concept of “Bodily autonomy” is bullshit. It means absolutely nothing to a virus. It’s merely taking a virus out of the scientific/biological context and dressing it up as some kind of philosophical/political concept.

For the same reasons, if there was such a thing as “bodily autonomy” at that level, you could simply refuse to ever get sick, age or die. Then there’d be no point in the Prince Sidhartha ever leaving the palace and becoming a Buddha.
Absolutely agree. The whole idea that something which is constantly changing and has no permanence can still somehow have “autonomy” makes no sense in terms of Dharma. We rise from Shunyata and if we have the karmic fortune to find a teacher we can find our way off the wheel. Neither autonomy nor determinism has any relevance here.
Bodily autonomy would be the idea that I have the right to choose what I do with my own body. For example, if I told you that you must get a tattoo on your forehead for the safety of the community and that refusal to do so would lead to punishment of some sort, that would be an infringement of your bodily autonomy. And let's say you agreed, surrendering your right of choice relating to your body could then be used in others ways if a powerful institution so desired since such a precedent has been set by your willing concession, so now you have to get your ears removed for the safety of the community or we will punish you. See how important freedom of choice and bodily autonomy is?
I get the point, but what a clumsy example.

You not wearing a mask or taking other mitigation measures around people you could easily infect - many of whom might be far more vulnerable than you- is an infringement of their bodily autonomy, so what? Do you really believe this is a valid argument against masking? FFS.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:56 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:18 pm At the level of microbiology, the concept of “Bodily autonomy” is bullshit. It means absolutely nothing to a virus. It’s merely taking a virus out of the scientific/biological context and dressing it up as some kind of philosophical/political concept.

For the same reasons, if there was such a thing as “bodily autonomy” at that level, you could simply refuse to ever get sick, age or die. Then there’d be no point in the Prince Sidhartha ever leaving the palace and becoming a Buddha.
Absolutely agree. The whole idea that something which is constantly changing and has no permanence can still somehow have “autonomy” makes no sense in terms of Dharma. We rise from Shunyata and if we have the karmic fortune to find a teacher we can find our way off the wheel. Neither autonomy nor determinism has any relevance here.
Bodily autonomy would be the idea that I have the right to choose what I do with my own body. For example, if I told you that you must get a tattoo on your forehead for the safety of the community and that refusal to do so would lead to punishment of some sort, that would be an infringement of your bodily autonomy. And let's say you agreed, surrendering your right of choice relating to your body could then be used in others ways if a powerful institution so desired since such a precedent has been set by your willing concession, so now you have to get your ears removed for the safety of the community or we will punish you. See how important freedom of choice and bodily autonomy is?
Please note: I said at the level of microbiology which is where you have to discuss viruses, or for that matter, infections from tattoos. Yeah, you can choose to get a tattoo and you can do it in a really sanitary studio or in a prison cell. If you do it under dirty conditions, you don’t have any autonomy. It’s not other humans deciding for you. It’s microbes. And they outnumber us a trillion to one.

If you truly had body autonomy, you could simply choose, at will, not to let the virus enter your body just as you wouldn’t let a rabid raccoon into your kitchen.

It’s the idea that, “I’m not going to look at this from a biological point of view, but a political one” which has derailed the whole pandemic, which conceivably could have all been over and done with in six months.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:44 pm
Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:56 pm

Absolutely agree. The whole idea that something which is constantly changing and has no permanence can still somehow have “autonomy” makes no sense in terms of Dharma. We rise from Shunyata and if we have the karmic fortune to find a teacher we can find our way off the wheel. Neither autonomy nor determinism has any relevance here.
Bodily autonomy would be the idea that I have the right to choose what I do with my own body. For example, if I told you that you must get a tattoo on your forehead for the safety of the community and that refusal to do so would lead to punishment of some sort, that would be an infringement of your bodily autonomy. And let's say you agreed, surrendering your right of choice relating to your body could then be used in others ways if a powerful institution so desired since such a precedent has been set by your willing concession, so now you have to get your ears removed for the safety of the community or we will punish you. See how important freedom of choice and bodily autonomy is?
Please note: I said at the level of microbiology which is where you have to discuss viruses, or for that matter, infections from tattoos. Yeah, you can choose to get a tattoo and you can do it in a really sanitary studio or in a prison cell. If you do it under dirty conditions, you don’t have any autonomy. It’s not other humans deciding for you. It’s microbes. And they outnumber us a trillion to one.
I think you are missing the point of the (clumsy) analogy. Basically the idea is that there is "mission creep" with things like this. 9-11 is a great example. Eventually this resulted in a historical spying scandal with the NSA hoovering up Americans information in the name of safety and security. View 20 years on, we can see how outlandish so many of the measures taken were - the Patriot act and nearly everything following it.

There is a very reasonable concern that similar things can happen with Covid. However, this does not make it any less dumb to not get vaccinated, it simply means that there need to be much clearer boundaries and limitations around some of these things - for instance to what degree the unvaccinated can be excluded from daily life before we are doing something harmful not only to them, but to the general social fabric, in which circumstances people should be compelled to prove immunity, etc.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:22 pm If you want the freedom to not mask up around my unvaccinated kids or my immune suppressed mother, then you have the freedom to face a smack down from me and whoever else. Seriously, that's some selfish nonsense.
So threats of violence for noncompliance and due to fear, not very Buddhistic friend.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:27 pm I get the point, but what a clumsy example.

You not wearing a mask or taking other mitigation measures around people you could easily infect - many of whom might be far more vulnerable than you- is an infringement of their bodily autonomy, so what? Do you really believe this is a valid argument against masking? FFS.
No the virus would be infringing their bodily autonomy, not me, and it would be a chance encounter between two individuals that could in no way ever be used against them in the future unlike the example I provided where it would be powerful institutions removing ones ability to choose by force and could thereafter be subject to potential abuse in the future.

If preventing premature death is the goal here I think we better get rid of automobiles and ban obese people as well since car accidents and heart disease caused by obesity are just as deadly, after all even if I don't drive a car if someone else does they could hit me or someone with heart disease caused by obesity could pass out or die while doing something which could hurt me too, say like piloting a plane or falling from a high place on top of me.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:22 pm If you want the freedom to not mask up around my unvaccinated kids or my immune suppressed mother, then you have the freedom to face a smack down from me and whoever else. Seriously, that's some selfish nonsense.
So threats of violence for noncompliance and due to fear, not very Buddhistic friend.
Fortunately I feel no need to prove my 'Buddhistic" credentials to anyone. And yes, if someone wants to grandstand about masks around my immune suppressed mother, I'd be happy to do my best to toss them out of wherever we were.

No the virus would be infringing their bodily autonomy, not me, and it would be a chance encounter between two individuals that could in no way ever be used against them in the future unlike the example I provided where it would be powerful institutions removing ones ability to choose by force and could thereafter be subject to potential abuse in the future.
It is you choosing to put them at greater risk of the virus, and greatly increasing the risk of them getting it, depending on behavior and circumstance. -You- are morally culpable for that, particularly if you are somewhere that people have to be - let's a say grocery store -, and you are walking around with no protection at all, yet insisting that you don't need to take any mitigation measures.
If preventing premature death is the goal here I think we better get rid of automobiles and ban obese people as well since car accidents and heart disease caused by obesity are just as deadly, after all even if I don't drive a car if someone else does they could hit me or someone with heart disease caused by obesity could pass out or die while doing something which could hurt me too, say like piloting a plane or falling from a high place on top of me.
There is no comparison, because these are calculated risks that people are willing to take, they are not choosing to be exposed to Covid, but by not wearing a mask, being unvaccinated and being in close proximity to people who might be more vulnerable, you are knowingly making the decision to subordinate their rights to your own. Talk about "not very Buddhistic".
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:32 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:17 pm I got vaccinated and conform to mask policy- I don't want to be the guy who catches covid and brings it home to my family, or elsewhere for that matter. How would that freedom feel if your kid caught covid from you and died on a ventilator in the hospital?
That's what I am, freedom of choice, choice to vaccinate and mask up or freedom not to.
Its a bullshit argument.

Your example doesn't falsify the statement that freedoms once given away are often never given back and the potential that has for future abuse by institutions which may become or are already corrupt, as is a near constant trend throughout the history of mankind.
Yawn.

bodily autonomy
Your physical autonomy is not as important as the lives of people you will take through your ignorance and indifference.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:11 pm

Bodily autonomy would be the idea that I have the right to choose what I do with my own body. For example, if I told you that you must get a tattoo on your forehead for the safety of the community and that refusal to do so would lead to punishment of some sort, that would be an infringement of your bodily autonomy. And let's say you agreed, surrendering your right of choice relating to your body could then be used in others ways if a powerful institution so desired since such a precedent has been set by your willing concession, so now you have to get your ears removed for the safety of the community or we will punish you. See how important freedom of choice and bodily autonomy is?
This is a stupid argument.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:02 pm Fortunately I feel no need to prove my 'Buddhistic" credentials to anyone. And yes, if someone wants to grandstand about masks around my immune suppressed mother, I'd be happy to do my best to toss them out of wherever we were.
K but fear based thinking and violence stemming from it is outside the Buddhadharma.

All I can do is repeat what I already have said which is that I believe the right to bodily autonomy and freedom of choice is more important and wiser, especially long term, than fear based thinking that leads to acquiescing freedoms for short term safety. So we will have to agree to disagree.

But on the topic, what is the survival rate of this virus for people under 80 and who have no preexisting conditions again?
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:22 pm If you want the freedom to not mask up around my unvaccinated kids or my immune suppressed mother, then you have the freedom to face a smack down from me and whoever else. Seriously, that's some selfish nonsense.
So threats of violence for noncompliance and due to fear, not very Buddhistic friend.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:27 pm I get the point, but what a clumsy example.

You not wearing a mask or taking other mitigation measures around people you could easily infect - many of whom might be far more vulnerable than you- is an infringement of their bodily autonomy, so what? Do you really believe this is a valid argument against masking? FFS.
No the virus would be infringing their bodily autonomy, not me, and it would be a chance encounter between two individuals that could in no way ever be used against them in the future unlike the example I provided where it would be powerful institutions removing ones ability to choose by force and could thereafter be subject to potential abuse in the future.

If preventing premature death is the goal here I think we better get rid of automobiles and ban obese people as well since car accidents and heart disease caused by obesity are just as deadly, after all even if I don't drive a car if someone else does they could hit me or someone with heart disease caused by obesity could pass out or die while doing something which could hurt me too, say like piloting a plane or falling from a high place on top of me.
I think you need to think about it from a different angle. It's not about your rights not to be forced to do something to prevent the virus from spreading, it should be about your responsibility to do what you can to protect others from the virus spreading.

Wearing a mask is easy and simple to do, keeping a reasonable distance from others when out and about is easy and simple to do, regularly washing your hands when you go to different venues is easy and simple to do, getting the vaccine is easy and simple to do.

These measures aren't for yourself, they are for the benefit of others. Now if you find some of these easy and simple things impossible, then at least do all those you can, that's your choice, that's your responsibility.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:16 pm

K but fear based thinking and violence stemming from it is outside the Buddhadharma.
It's not fear based thinking, but a statement of fact. I have family that are anti-masker whatevers, if they tried to hang out with my immune suppressed mother while taking no mitigation measures, I wouldn't stand for it. I don't care if you like how I put it or not. Surely if it disturbs you can simply assume I have autonomy to talk how I like to talk about it. You are also certainly not the gatekeeper of whether or not my behavior and actions are "outside Buddhadharma".
All I can do is repeat what I already have said which is that I believe the right to bodily autonomy and freedom of choice is more important and wiser, especially long term, than fear based thinking that leads to acquiescing freedoms for short term safety. So we will have to agree to disagree.
I agree to some extent, and I posted earlier on it. I actually know about civil liberties issues surrounding Covid and follow them though, do you, or is it just platitudes like this?
But on the topic, what is the survival rate of this virus for people under 80 and who have no preexisting conditions again?
It's very high for young people, most young people will not die of Covid, so basically you are saying here your rights supercede there's, thanks for proving my point.

It is also not so simple as everyone under 80 being safe, friggin' educate yourself on the basic facts man.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... y-age.html

Generally speaking risk of severe disease and death increases greatly with age, to the point where a 65 year old person faces a much more significant risk than even someone 20 years younger.

Of course, vaccinated people face a -very low-, almost negligible rate of severe disease and death.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:18 pm
Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:22 pm If you want the freedom to not mask up around my unvaccinated kids or my immune suppressed mother, then you have the freedom to face a smack down from me and whoever else. Seriously, that's some selfish nonsense.
So threats of violence for noncompliance and due to fear, not very Buddhistic friend.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:27 pm I get the point, but what a clumsy example.

You not wearing a mask or taking other mitigation measures around people you could easily infect - many of whom might be far more vulnerable than you- is an infringement of their bodily autonomy, so what? Do you really believe this is a valid argument against masking? FFS.
No the virus would be infringing their bodily autonomy, not me, and it would be a chance encounter between two individuals that could in no way ever be used against them in the future unlike the example I provided where it would be powerful institutions removing ones ability to choose by force and could thereafter be subject to potential abuse in the future.

If preventing premature death is the goal here I think we better get rid of automobiles and ban obese people as well since car accidents and heart disease caused by obesity are just as deadly, after all even if I don't drive a car if someone else does they could hit me or someone with heart disease caused by obesity could pass out or die while doing something which could hurt me too, say like piloting a plane or falling from a high place on top of me.
I think you need to think about it from a different angle. It's not about your rights not to be forced to do something to prevent the virus from spreading, it should be about your responsibility to do what you can to protect others from the virus spreading.

Wearing a mask is easy and simple to do, keeping a reasonable distance from others when out and about is easy and simple to do, regularly washing your hands when you go to different venues is easy and simple to do, getting the vaccine is easy and simple to do.

These measures aren't for yourself, they are for the benefit of others. Now if you find some of these easy and simple things impossible, then at least do all those you can, that's your choice, that's your responsibility.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:18 pm I think you need to think about it from a different angle. It's not about your rights not to be forced to do something to prevent the virus from spreading, it should be about your responsibility to do what you can to protect others from the virus spreading.
Yes, this is why I say we must ban automobiles. Think about it, not only do automobile drivers often kill themselves in accidents, they frequently kill wildlife and pedestrians who don't even drive cars. Since safety is the top priority and car accidents kill so many each year, it is your responsibility to not drive one to protect others, I mean it's not really fair that shortening your travel time from point A to point B should put my and others lives at risk. Just one less car related death is worth their complete removal I say.
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Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

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Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:24 pm
Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:18 pm I think you need to think about it from a different angle. It's not about your rights not to be forced to do something to prevent the virus from spreading, it should be about your responsibility to do what you can to protect others from the virus spreading.
Yes, this is why I say we must ban automobiles. Think about it, not only do automobile drivers often kill themselves in accidents, they frequently kill wildlife and pedestrians who don't even drive cars. Since safety is the top priority and car accidents kill so many each year, it is your responsibility to not drive one to protect others, I mean it's not really fair that shortening your travel time from point A to point B should put my and others lives at risk. Just one less car related death is worth their complete removal I say.

People take a calculated, knowing risk by driving cars, and everyone driving assumes this risk. You cannot say the same of Covid because people have different degrees of risk, and you can choose to mitigate risk to others and yourself by things like vaccination, masking and distancing.

So to use your analogy, you are basically a drunk driver (someone driving who is at far greater risk than others of causing harm), and are somehow trying to convince us that this is the same as simply being a driver...it's not, and the argument is transparently bad.

Honestly if you wanna not get vaccinated, I'm not gonna shame you, but you should at least take protective measures like masking and distancing, and probably expect that your will face some serious inconveniences. I will still support your right to use stores, etc. without need to prove you are vaccinated, but part of that hinges on your willingness to adopt other mitigation measures. The fact that you are willing to do nothing apparently to mitigate risk to yourself or others actually partially pushes the institutions that you are so afraid into behaving like they are - making blunt, stupid, short sighted policies in reaction (I know it is not all you) to your bad decisions.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Malcolm »

Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:24 pm
Bristollad wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:18 pm I think you need to think about it from a different angle. It's not about your rights not to be forced to do something to prevent the virus from spreading, it should be about your responsibility to do what you can to protect others from the virus spreading.
Yes, this is why I say we must ban automobiles. Think about it, not only do automobile drivers often kill themselves in accidents, they frequently kill wildlife and pedestrians who don't even drive cars. Since safety is the top priority and car accidents kill so many each year, it is your responsibility to not drive one to protect others, I mean it's not really fair that shortening your travel time from point A to point B should put my and others lives at risk. Just one less car related death is worth their complete removal I say.
Dumb. Get lost troll.
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Giovanni »

Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:02 pm Fortunately I feel no need to prove my 'Buddhistic" credentials to anyone. And yes, if someone wants to grandstand about masks around my immune suppressed mother, I'd be happy to do my best to toss them out of wherever we were.
K but fear based thinking and violence stemming from it is outside the Buddhadharma.

All I can do is repeat what I already have said which is that I believe the right to bodily autonomy and freedom of choice is more important and wiser, especially long term, than fear based thinking that leads to acquiescing freedoms for short term safety. So we will have to agree to disagree.

But on the topic, what is the survival rate of this virus for people under 80 and who have no preexisting conditions again?
There are no rights, freedoms, choices, or bodily autonomy outside of karma-vipaka. That is almost a working definition of Samsara.
Bristollad
Posts: 1123
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Anti-vaxx sentiment in western sanghas

Post by Bristollad »

Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:16 pm But on the topic, what is the survival rate of this virus for people under 80 and who have no preexisting conditions again?
The pre-existing conditions that are thought to make a difference to outcomes if you get infected are: cancer, chronic kidney disease, chronic lung disease including asthma, neurological conditions like dementia, types 1 and 2 diabetes, Down syndrome, heart conditions, HIV infection, weakened immune system, liver disease, being overweight or obese, pregnancy, sickle cell disease, being a current or former smoker, being the recipient of a donated organ, having suffered a stroke, and substance abuse disorder.

Seeing as adult obesity in the USA for 2017-2018 alone was 42.4% of the population, I think it is our responsibility to try and undertake what measures we can to reduce the spread of the virus.
Seitaka wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:24 pm Since safety is the top priority and car accidents kill so many each year, it is your responsibility to not drive one to protect others, I mean it's not really fair that shortening your travel time from point A to point B should put my and others lives at risk.
I would instead argue that it is the responsibility of a driver to reduce the possible harm that may come from their driving. It is their responsibility to ensure the vehicle is roadworthy, it is their responsibility to ensure they are trained, it is their responsibility not to drive when their ability is affected through tiredness, illness or other temporary conditions.

I'm not talking about what the Government should or should not force people to do, I'm talking about you what can do to help others. I'm talking about each of us taking personal responsibility to do easy and simple things for the benefit of others.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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