Should laypeople request dana?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Sunrise
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Should laypeople request dana?

Post by Sunrise »

Please tell me what you think. I would appreciate someone else's perspective on this.

I attended a Buddhist meditation class that had a significant fee. At the end of the class, we were requested to give additional money to the teacher of the class. There was a whole rap about how dana is a virtue and that it's customary to do this. The teacher is a layperson with a high paying job, who probably makes more than most of the people in attendance. Also, the class was just in someone's house, not a temple (I know temples have bills to pay).

I have no problem giving dana for teachings that are freely offered, especially if it's by monks or nuns who traditionally don't hold outside jobs. Also, if it was a just a flat fee for a class, at least you'd know upfront what's expected of you. Is this double whammy of high fee plus dana common? Should well to do laypeople even be requiring fees and dana for their teachings?

This event really stood out for me because I participate in another group run by monastics who give everything away freely. I mean everything. Meditation classes, book study classes, their time and care, everything. Donations are welcome, but there's no financial pressure at all. I'm delighted to donate to them, because they're so incredibly generous. I really appreciate that people from all financial situations can participate in their group.

What do you think about all this? What is your experience with fees and dana?
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Kurp
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by Kurp »

Sunrise wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:49 pm At the end of the class, we were requested to give additional money to the teacher of the class.

….

Is this double whammy of high fee plus dana common?
I don’t know why, but this reminds me of when you get in line to pay for groceries and they ask if you want to “round up” and make a donation. Or when you order some food and there is a tip jar strategically placed in front of the cashier.

Anyway, if you are not cool with paying the dana, just don’t pay it… 🤷🏼‍♀️ Teachings stay alive because people see value in them and pay money to keep things going. However, don’t let the “tip jar” place peer pressure on you. If you are not comfortable and/or unable to offer dana, you can always visualize what you’d like to offer to the teacher, I have heard.
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

The organiser may be trying to encourage attendees to take the first step of dana n detachment.

I attend classes in monastery n Buddhist learning centre taught by monks, never experienced classes by laypeople
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

This is very unusual.
Based on your very brief description of events, it sounds rather suspect.
And the reason is, putting aside whether the speaker already has money in their pocket or not, (that’s actually irrelevant) the question comes down to what the money you are giving is to be used for. Or, on what basis this “generosity” is being encouraged.

If the idea of giving away your money is that it’s some method for developing non-attachment, this is the oldest guru scam in the book. You would be better off simply walking down the street handing dollar bills to people. You could practice dana a hundred times in an hour doing that, and bring benefit to a hundred people.

Also, even a required fee up front needs to be examined. Again, what’s the money to be used for? I’ve been part of a sangha which for years has always struggled to get by financially (they have a temple, thus temple costs) but even when fees for teachings are advertised, there is always an alternative (helping with tasks for example) but nobody is ever turned away. Why not? It is felt that the teachings are too precious, too important not to share with those who really want them. It would be like withholding medicine from a sick person.

The people you encountered may have very legitimate reasons for needing money. Perhaps the group is supporting a monastery recently destroyed by floods or something. But, that should be explained up front.

There are also a few internationally active Buddhist groups, mostly laypeople, which unfortunately rank members according to how much money they give. Large donors are promoted to higher positions in the organizational structure. I’m not suggesting that this was the case with the group you encountered, but this seems like a good place to mention it.
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pemachophel
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by pemachophel »

If it was a Vajrayana teaching, doesn't matter if the Teacher is lay or monastic. Also doesn't matter if the Teacher is rich or poor. But, IMO, there should be no asking.
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Inedible
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by Inedible »

It is really simple. In order to get to the point of becoming a recognized teacher with the backing of a lineage, it is necessary to pay a lot of money. Hundreds of hours of practice, if not thousands, would also be ideal. By that point a person wants to see results. It is time to get in on the production side instead of just being a customer. Also, getting paid is a good way to be able to afford to buy even higher teachings. So the cycle continues. People who want to be paid for teaching create people who want to be paid. In another thread I said that money can solve just about any problem, and being close to death was the exception I had in mind. This was the kind of thing I had in mind. If you have money you can pay for teachings, go on retreats, make offerings, collect Dharma books, buy statues, incense, flowers, butter lamps, earn merit by giving food, shelter, robes, incense, statues, and so on. You can pay for mantra recitations and Sutra readings. Look it up if you don't believe me. If you have enough money you don't even need to practice.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

The way this topic is titled,
“Should laypeople request dana?”
…is interesting in itself, because dana isn’t something you request.
Dana is something that one provides others an opportunity to practice. In other words, a monk might go alms begging, or a temple might have a collection box, but there’s no “request” about it. The bowl is simply open on top. If money falls into it, that’s a reflection on the practice and quality of the one carrying the bowl.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:00 am The way this topic is titled,
“Should laypeople request dana?”
…is interesting in itself, because dana isn’t something you request.
Dana is something that one provides others an opportunity to practice. In other words, a monk might go alms begging, or a temple might have a collection box, but there’s no “request” about it. The bowl is simply open on top. If money falls into it, that’s a reflection on the practice and quality of the one carrying the bowl.
By the way, I’m not saying Buddhist groups should never ask for financial support (I myself am involved in sangha fundraising). The point I was making was that dana comes from within the practitioner, not down to the practitioner from above.
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Sunrise
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by Sunrise »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:16 pm the question comes down to what the money you are giving is to be used for. Or, on what basis this “generosity” is being encouraged.

If the idea of giving away your money is that it’s some method for developing non-attachment, this is the oldest guru scam in the book. You would be better off simply walking down the street handing dollar bills to people. You could practice dana a hundred times in an hour doing that, and bring benefit to a hundred people.

Also, even a required fee up front needs to be examined. Again, what’s the money to be used for?
That's a good point. They didn't say how the fee money would be used, but I got the impression that the dana for the teacher is simply a gift for them. Maybe the money collected will go to some noble cause, or maybe it will just be supplemental income. I don't know.

Suppose, hypothetically, that a layperson teaches meditation classes just for supplemental income. Is this okay, or is this problematic? What if the teacher ups it a notch, and has a fancy retreat center where they're getting rich selling the Dharma? I once looked up the net worth of a popular meditation teacher, and that person was estimated to be a multi-millionaire.

I guess an issue I have is that initially in the Buddha's time, dana was used to provide a meager existence for monastics who freely taught the Dharma. It was there to relieve poverty so people could focus on the Dharma full-time. Dana requests for well to do laypeople is just kind of weird to me.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Sunrise wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:31 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:16 pm the question comes down to what the money you are giving is to be used for. Or, on what basis this “generosity” is being encouraged.

If the idea of giving away your money is that it’s some method for developing non-attachment, this is the oldest guru scam in the book. You would be better off simply walking down the street handing dollar bills to people. You could practice dana a hundred times in an hour doing that, and bring benefit to a hundred people.

Also, even a required fee up front needs to be examined. Again, what’s the money to be used for?
That's a good point. They didn't say how the fee money would be used, but I got the impression that the dana for the teacher is simply a gift for them. Maybe the money collected will go to some noble cause, or maybe it will just be supplemental income. I don't know.

Suppose, hypothetically, that a layperson teaches meditation classes just for supplemental income. Is this okay, or is this problematic? What if the teacher ups it a notch, and has a fancy retreat center where they're getting rich selling the Dharma? I once looked up the net worth of a popular meditation teacher, and that person was estimated to be a multi-millionaire.

I guess an issue I have is that initially in the Buddha's time, dana was used to provide a meager existence for monastics who freely taught the Dharma. It was there to relieve poverty so people could focus on the Dharma full-time. Dana requests for well to do laypeople is just kind of weird to me.
Anyone can teach meditation for money. People teach yoga for money, right? If they get rich doing so, that’s their good fortune. But that’s a business and should be presented as such. And you can look at people like HHDL, who has attendants and everything he needs, and arguably has a lot of income from books and other royalties, but who technically doesn’t own anything. These details aren’t really that important, I think.

It’s the wishy-washy ‘not exactly a fee, not exactly a donation’ aspect of this that would make me wary of anything else associated with this teacher.
Either say “meditation instruction =$ per session” or offer it freely and have a donation box, and explain that you are also raising money for a purpose, in case anybody would care to donate (which actually has nothing to do with whether someone is teaching you meditation or not).
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Jen1975
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Re: Should laypeople request dana?

Post by Jen1975 »

This very much resonates with me as the exact same thing happened to me several times, unfortunately I later found out the group involved was a cultish pseudo Buddhist organisation and the lay people were basically walking around in robes calling themselves ordained teachers. One of them now drives a flash sports car, which sums up the situation well I think.
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