Can't control thoughts

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

You don’t have to control your thoughts.
You just need to be in control of your own mind,
The mind that is aware of the thoughts.
EMPTIFUL.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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To go further into this, having the karmic disposition for something like OCD is just that - karmic disposition. Maybe we can figure out causal factors for some of it utilizing typical therapies. This can be really helpful but of course these therapies are geared towards a view of one lifetime, so more than likely we will not be able to figure out exactly why we suffer from OCD, anxiety, etc. The parable of the arrow is instructive here, we don;t need to know who poisoned it, we just need to pull it out.

However, we are able to identify these thoughts, and proceed with dealing with OCD. that is the part of things we have control over, our habituation towards OCD is not, we can only work with it. So, "OCD thoughts" as they appear in the present life are more viewable as a result than a cause, it is how we deal with them that creates future karma, as OCD thoughts are not volitional in the same way that some thoughts are. We don't make a conscious choice to have these thoughts - though we can make conscious choices in various reactions to them.

How we choose to deal with OCD thought, and how we approach having OCD, etc. is volitional.

The deeper you get into meditation the more you can see that there are all kinds of thought we have that we do not act on, so it is instructive to understand that Karma is volition, it is not just thoughts one has...but one's disposition and reaction to those thoughts.
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yinyangkoi
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by yinyangkoi »

So if I stop identifying with the thoughts I will not suffer anymore from it? I already don't identify with them, but the anxiety still happens? Or is the anxiety happening because I am still identifying it as me
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:39 am Hello, in specific conditions specific thoughts arise. Sometimes those are negative thoughts. Then I identify them as negative (because they cause bad karma). Then I react to the idea that it caused bad karma with anxiety. How should I reprogram this thought process? How can you change it if I can't control the thoughts? Does it really cause bad karma if I have no control over it? Since it's not me doing it?
Karma is created when we say or do things with a positive or negative emotion (the afflictions) or intention. All that worrying about whether or not something you say or do causes karma is just more confusion on top of it all. Just tend your thoughts and actions towards more love and compassion, and soon your habits will change. The positivity will overpower the negative.
yinyangkoi wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:07 pm So if I stop identifying with the thoughts I will not suffer anymore from it? I already don't identify with them, but the anxiety still happens? Or is the anxiety happening because I am still identifying it as me
Maybe you'd like Tsoknyi Rinpoche's online course Fully Being. It has some great methods for working with the mind.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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yinyangkoi wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:07 pm So if I stop identifying with the thoughts I will not suffer anymore from it? I already don't identify with them, but the anxiety still happens? Or is the anxiety happening because I am still identifying it as me
Yes, and no. It is not about identifying with them or not. Yes, thinking something along the lines of "It's just my OCD again", can be helpful, but what's being described here is the result of Buddhist practices that can take years and years to learn and understand properly, depending.

It really requires a teacher to understand properly, as it's not something that can be understood in terms we are used to .(at least that was the case for me) Even if you do understand it intellectually it won't get rid of suffering, it has to be first experienced, then understood, and then applied as a solution.

If you want to learn to apply it, I would seek out a teacher. The process essentially begins with mindfulness meditation. This has to be practiced and experienced over and over, until you really understand the experience. As your meditations deepen, and you begin to understand just what you are experiencing with greater depth, you can reach a point where the anxiety ceases. (As long as you continue to practice) Before then though there is a great deal of reduction to the anxiety, and other afflictions.

Practices such as mindfulness, and various compassion meditations will probably be the greatest asset for dealing with anxiety. Compassion meditations in particular tend to have a pain reducing effect when they are done correctly, they improve your mood, reduce selfishness, and can just make life easier in general when you stick to practicing them.

Just realize this will take time, dedication, and you will need help to achieve, but what's described here is an absolutely real thing. If you have a councilor, or someone who helps with your mental health you can ask them about mindfulness based mental health practices, and also seek out a teacher in a tradition, this will speed up the process greatly.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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Yes, and no. It is not about identifying with them or not.
I wanted to clarify this statement, as I wasn't entirely sure what you mean when you speak of identifying with thoughts or not.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:21 am You don’t have to control your thoughts.
But this is good advice.. You don't have to control the thoughts. The way to handle them is fundamentally to relax. If you can relax your body to start, that helps. Then learning how to relax your mind will take it even further. If you do not have much meditation experience, then most of whats been said will be difficult to understand properly.

When we speak of identifying with thoughts, it means something very specific. A reduction/freedom from grasping and aversion that is learned through meditation practice. This is why I am recommending finding a teacher. There are some you can find online, with video lessons, and video groups you can attend. I'm sure plenty of people here could recommend them as well.

Intellectually knowing the idea of non-self, and practicing the Dharma with guidance are two entirely different things. It's not something you can simply read about and then try to force onto your mind. That will likely end up harming you, and causing problems.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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yinyangkoi wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:07 pm So if I stop identifying with the thoughts I will not suffer anymore from it? I already don't identify with them, but the anxiety still happens? Or is the anxiety happening because I am still identifying it as me
What exactly is ‘anxiety’ to you, is it thoughts, or physical sensations?

Not identifying with thoughts is not just an intellectual decision you make, it’s a result of practice and for most of us, we can only expect so much. If you make it into something like ‘I must not do x y or z’ you are just creating a new trap.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

You can quite literally “watch” your thoughts parading by, coming and going, arising and falling, one after another just as you would watch a street parade with floats and horses and marching bands. You watch it but you don’t get pulled into it.

The problem for most people, and I mean most people is that they don’t distinguish between the arising parade of thoughts, and their own mind as the observer. They just get swept away by one thought or feeling after another.


You can sit in meditation (or try to, anyhow) and as the thoughts arise, you see them as though observing from a short distance. You can think, “now I’m thinking about cats. Now I’m thinking about my aunt Maggie” and so on, although taking it to this extent is a distraction too. It’s really enough if you just recognize your distraction, think the word “thinking” if need be, and then just return to your meditation focus, the breath, or whatever it is.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
yinyangkoi
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by yinyangkoi »

Jesse wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:03 am
Yes, and no. It is not about identifying with them or not.
I wanted to clarify this statement, as I wasn't entirely sure what you mean when you speak of identifying with thoughts or not.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:21 am You don’t have to control your thoughts.
But this is good advice.. You don't have to control the thoughts. The way to handle them is fundamentally to relax. If you can relax your body to start, that helps. Then learning how to relax your mind will take it even further. If you do not have much meditation experience, then most of whats been said will be difficult to understand properly.

When we speak of identifying with thoughts, it means something very specific. A reduction/freedom from grasping and aversion that is learned through meditation practice. This is why I am recommending finding a teacher. There are some you can find online, with video lessons, and video groups you can attend. I'm sure plenty of people here could recommend them as well.

Intellectually knowing the idea of non-self, and practicing the Dharma with guidance are two entirely different things. It's not something you can simply read about and then try to force onto your mind. That will likely end up harming you, and causing problems.
I am planning to join a local zen sangha where I can have a teacher. I have been meditating for 3 years, every day for 1 hour. In the beginning I only had an intellectual understanding, but the more I practiced meditation and mindfulness in daily life, the more I gained a experiential understanding. I have become aware how it works. I understand the no self from a point of experience, I can just see how it happens. Why I opened this thread is to find a way to change this pattern of anxiety. I see how it works, but that doesn't change the process.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:17 pm .... I have become aware how it works. I understand the no self from a point of experience, I can just see how it happens. Why I opened this thread is to find a way to change this pattern of anxiety. I see how it works, but that doesn't change the process.
Modern psychologiy is not able to heal everything. But in the case of anxiety-disorder they have good results.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by yinyangkoi »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 am
yinyangkoi wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:07 pm So if I stop identifying with the thoughts I will not suffer anymore from it? I already don't identify with them, but the anxiety still happens? Or is the anxiety happening because I am still identifying it as me
What exactly is ‘anxiety’ to you, is it thoughts, or physical sensations?

Not identifying with thoughts is not just an intellectual decision you make, it’s a result of practice and for most of us, we can only expect so much. If you make it into something like ‘I must not do x y or z’ you are just creating a new trap.
It works like this: There are concepts and ideas which create the temporary idea of self, which I am attached to. For example, don't harm anyone. Then a thought appears in the form of images or speech, which is the exact opposite of the values I identify with and embody. For example, an image where I stab someone. Then this thought is recognized as something that is unwanted. This unwantedness is then creating the reaction of anxiety. The anxiety is then supposed to either make me fight or run away. Problem is, you can't run away or fight a thought. The anxiety manifests as tension in the body, hightend state of alertness and wakefulness, basically how a lot of adrenaline feels. What I mean with not identifying with thoughts is: When a sensation or phenomena appears (the thought), I don't identify it as me. This non identifying looks like this: the thought is observed neutrally, neither wanting it, nor not wanting it. This requires mindfulness. So it works when I am mindful, if I am not it causes the anxiety.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by Ayu »

Ayu wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:21 pm
yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:17 pm .... I have become aware how it works. I understand the no self from a point of experience, I can just see how it happens. Why I opened this thread is to find a way to change this pattern of anxiety. I see how it works, but that doesn't change the process.
Modern psychologiy is not able to heal everything. But in the case of anxiety-disorder they have good results.
yinyangkoi
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Re: Can't control thoughts

Post by yinyangkoi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:28 pm You can quite literally “watch” your thoughts parading by, coming and going, arising and falling, one after another just as you would watch a street parade with floats and horses and marching bands. You watch it but you don’t get pulled into it.

The problem for most people, and I mean most people is that they don’t distinguish between the arising parade of thoughts, and their own mind as the observer. They just get swept away by one thought or feeling after another.


You can sit in meditation (or try to, anyhow) and as the thoughts arise, you see them as though observing from a short distance. You can think, “now I’m thinking about cats. Now I’m thinking about my aunt Maggie” and so on, although taking it to this extent is a distraction too. It’s really enough if you just recognize your distraction, think the word “thinking” if need be, and then just return to your meditation focus, the breath, or whatever it is.
I have meditation experience, and I understand what you are talking about. But it doesn't stop the process of OCD. It just happens automatically, I can just observe.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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Just FYI: I am doing therapy and the issue is being taking care of, the point of this thread was to get a Buddhist interpretation or solution. I thought there may be a way to fix it, by some special practice, but it seems I already have all the tools necessary.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:33 pm Just FYI: I am doing therapy and the issue is being taking care of, the point of this thread was to get a Buddhist interpretation or solution. I thought there may be a way to fix it, by some special practice, but it seems I already have all the tools necessary.
Maybe a healer lama could give you personal advice.

But it seems to me, accepting that one cannot heal anything by buddhist practice would be a quite buddhist approach.
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Re: Can't control thoughts

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yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:33 pm Just FYI: I am doing therapy and the issue is being taking care of, the point of this thread was to get a Buddhist interpretation or solution. I thought there may be a way to fix it, by some special practice, but it seems I already have all the tools necessary.
I have done therapy with Buddhist therapists, they do not see the mind as something to ‘fix’ really, more like building skills to get to know it better and and manage the back and forth.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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