Neurodharma by Rick Hanson

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by Zhen Li »

Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 pm Well christian terminology in English shin texts is just historical fact. so, i have nothing to say more about it
If you can provide me with citations, and also details about this apparently heated debate, I would be glad to look into it. As a reader of the primary languages and having familiarity with the academic literature on the topic, I think you are overestimating the size of this issue. But I think it exists, as I mentioned, in places like where the BCA called their temples "churches."
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:37 pmNow, I agree with both you and Zhen Li that "grace" is not an appropriate word to use in Buddhadharma, on the other hand, you can forgive people for seeing what is referred to as the "primal vow" as a form fo grace: "unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification." And I guarantee you, despite your misgivings, many Westerners are inclined to see such concepts in light of "grace," just as many people confuse the Tibetan "byin rlabs (adhiṣṭhāna)", i.e., "conferred or transformed through power," aka blessings, for something like grace.
Almost no words are perfect equivalents in translation. Words even fail to express our thoughts perfectly, let alone Buddha nature. The point, at the end of the day, is to help guide people to an understanding or to get a gist of what is intended. Grace does this job fine, so long as the person reading or listning to the word doesn't have hangups with Christianity (which, frankly, is most western Buddhists).
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by Matylda »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:37 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:52 am Another analogy, just because Buddhism emphasises generosity, and Jesus also emphasised generosity, does not make Buddhism Christian in any sense. Similarity in one principle which many religions hold in common is really not enough to say that one religion, or the translations of terms is coming from one other religion. Buddhists do prostrations, Muslims do prostrations. Buddhism is not therefore Muslim or influenced by it.

So, if in Jōdo Shinshū faith alone is the cause of birth in the Pure Land (which is what Shinran holds), and if Christianity also suggests that faith alone is the cause of birth or resurrection into heaven (however they phrase it)So, I think it is very inaccurate to say Shin texts are "full of Christian protestant terms."
Well christian terminology in English shin texts is just historical fact. so, i have nothing to say more about it
The first definition of grace, in English, is:

Definition of grace (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification


Now, I agree with both you and Zhen Li that "grace" is not an appropriate word to use in Buddhadharma, on the other hand, you can forgive people for seeing what is referred to as the "primal vow" as a form fo grace: "unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification." And I guarantee you, despite your misgivings, many Westerners are inclined to see such concepts in light of "grace," just as many people confuse the Tibetan "byin rlabs (adhiṣṭhāna)", i.e., "conferred or transformed through power," aka blessings, for something like grace.
Thank You :namaste:
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

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Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm If you can provide me with citations, and also details about this apparently heated debate, I would be glad to look into it. As a reader of the primary languages and having familiarity with the academic literature on the topic, I think you are overestimating the size of this issue.
Yes I could overestemate, since I was just inactive witness. I cannoot provide any material, written or other about the debate etc. for simple reason, I was just an outsider, silent witness and friends of mine, who were involved only informed me about it. But they are shin teachers including academic professors. So all this only comes from my own testimony. Sorry for that. The only thing is that when I read English translations, at least those older ones, I could hardly understand whats up. It seemed to be very very different from Japanese original.

BTW in soto as fa as I know, they made an experriment. They have pretty big community of converts, who are not Japanese speakers. So what they did, they took certain translations, I mean English texts and retlanslated them back into Japanese. To the shock of all invloved this third version, the Japanese, did not even approach in its meaning the original Japanese text.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

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Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:28 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm If you can provide me with citations, and also details about this apparently heated debate, I would be glad to look into it. As a reader of the primary languages and having familiarity with the academic literature on the topic, I think you are overestimating the size of this issue.
Yes I could overestemate, since I was just inactive witness. I cannoot provide any material, written or other about the debate etc. for simple reason, I was just an outsider, silent witness and friends of mine, who were involved only informed me about it. But they are shin teachers including academic professors. So all this only comes from my own testimony. Sorry for that. The only thing is that when I read English translations, at least those older ones, I could hardly understand whats up. It seemed to be very very different from Japanese original.

BTW in soto as fa as I know, they made an experriment. They have pretty big community of converts, who are not Japanese speakers. So what they did, they took certain translations, I mean English texts and retlanslated them back into Japanese. To the shock of all invloved this third version, the Japanese, did not even approach in its meaning the original Japanese text.
It's helpful to keep in mind what terms and what texts are being referred to. Broadly characterising translations in English as being of one character without specifics (so that we can look into and analyse them here) is clumsy. Likewise, if you have a link to any informaiton about the Soto experiment, it sounds interesting—otherwise this is more hearsay.

With Pure Land Buddhism, even including Shinran's Kyogyoshinsho, these are not in Japanese but in Chinese or a Chinese with an adapted word order. I read Jodo Shinshu texts in Chinese, Japanese, and English and also read Sanskrit and Pali and other Buddhist langauges and can help you with any specifics if you have any particular concerns. But if we are complaining about all translations of a tradition with a broad brush, it is not a reliable means to knowledge or scholastically acceptable.

What does exist is some debate over whether we should remove terms with meanings in other languages—e.g. "entrusting" or "entrusting mind" for Shinjin, rather than faith or mind of faith. This is really a debate over using synonyms—the meaning is clearly identical.
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by Matylda »

Sorry、but as far as soto I am an insider, so I share what happened in the premises of soto, not what is officially on the table. And if you speak Japanese, then I suppose, that you know how it works. What you may see outside is about 5% what is really going on. Nobody is talking about family with the outside world. It works very differeent than in the West, this you are probably aware of.
So the demand to give you written proof here is just deep misunderstanding of how things work in Japan. And as you may know when people make mistake nobody will tell them. Unless there is kind of very close bond. if there is at least some relation then mistake will be pointed in a way that Westerner may hardly understand what is said. In the West any agenda is much more openly discussed and people feel inclined to it.
This is communication issue between very different cultures. similarly it is with translations and problems concerning the matter.
Last edited by Matylda on Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by Matylda »

ok i think that there is some material on the internet, anyway if you are interested please look for yourself...

https://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/120002815246 it is just the first from the pages responding to the key words 浄土真宗英語の翻訳の問題

for non-Japanese speakers from the link:

In 1978 with the publication of the Letters of Shinran: A translation of the Mattōshō, translators working at the Hongwanji International Center sparked a debate that continues at present regarding the translation or transliteration of the term shinjin. That this debate continues into the present day is not surprising when we consider that shinjin is the cornerstone of Shin Buddhist paths of awakening. This paper begins by analyzing shinjin within Shinran's writings and the Shin Buddhist tradition. Second, it examines arguments for and against either the transliteration or translation of shinjin. This paper then concludes by arguing that depending on context it is necessary to employ both strategies in order to properly communicate Shin Buddhism in English.
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by Matylda »

For the outsiders and the general public reports about international translations look like this:

https://international.hongwanji.or.jp/j ... ry1-4.html
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Re: Neurodharma by Rick Hanson

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

As someone who has trained in Jodo Shinshu I don’t identify with grace so much as any part of it.

Grace is something mysterious whereas in Jodo Shinshu it’s clearly Amida’s working due to his vows.
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by LetGo »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 pm Well christian terminology in English shin texts is just historical fact. so, i have nothing to say more about it
If you can provide me with citations,
Buddhist psalms translated from the Japanese, of Shinran Shōnin, by S. Yamabe and L. Adams Beck, Published John Murray 1921
- One of the earliest translations with a title lifted straight from Judeo-Christianity.

Shinran's Gospel of Pure Grace - A Bloom · 1963
- Another early work, from Bloom, a former Evangelical Christian missionary.

The Ritual Use of Music in US Jōdo Shinshū Buddhist Communities
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=rcbh20
- Academic paper on "US Jōdo Shinshū Buddhist songs in the style of Christian hymns", which appear very early in US Jodo Shinshu as an attempt to "Americanize".
Last edited by LetGo on Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by Zhen Li »

Matylda wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:42 am ok i think that there is some material on the internet, anyway if you are interested please look for yourself...

https://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/120002815246 it is just the first from the pages responding to the key words 浄土真宗英語の翻訳の問題

for non-Japanese speakers from the link:

In 1978 with the publication of the Letters of Shinran: A translation of the Mattōshō, translators working at the Hongwanji International Center sparked a debate that continues at present regarding the translation or transliteration of the term shinjin. That this debate continues into the present day is not surprising when we consider that shinjin is the cornerstone of Shin Buddhist paths of awakening. This paper begins by analyzing shinjin within Shinran's writings and the Shin Buddhist tradition. Second, it examines arguments for and against either the transliteration or translation of shinjin. This paper then concludes by arguing that depending on context it is necessary to employ both strategies in order to properly communicate Shin Buddhism in English.
The choice of wording regarding translations of Shinjin is quite well known. I don't think this is an inroad of Protestantism however.
LetGo wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:52 am
Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm
Matylda wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 pm Well christian terminology in English shin texts is just historical fact. so, i have nothing to say more about it
If you can provide me with citations,
Buddhist psalms translated from the Japanese, of Shinran Shōnin, by S. Yamabe and L. Adams Beck, Published John Murray 1921
- One of the earliest translations with a title lifted straight from Judeo-Christianity.

Shinran's Gospel of Pure Grace - A Bloom · 1963
- Another early work, from Bloom, a former Evangelical Christian missionary.

The Ritual Use of Music in US Jōdo Shinshū Buddhist Communities
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=rcbh20
- Academic paper on "US Jōdo Shinshū Buddhist songs in the style of Christian hymns", which appear very early in US Jodo Shinshu as an attempt to "Americanize".
Yes, Yamabe and Beck's translations are horrendous throughout. I cannot disagree with that. They definitely need to be put behind glass in a museum. I don't know if anyone actually uses that and it is too bad if it has led people astray.

Bloom knew Shinran quite well. If you read his works, such as Essential Shinran, this will be evident. I have heard the title of his dissertation but never actually came across a copy or PDF, so I cannot comment. Unfortunately, as covered in an old thread on this board, Bloom seems to have admitted to Richard St. Clair that he didn't actually believe in Amida. I don't think he had ulterior motives but I cannot comment on any of his works except Essential Shinran, which personally I find entirely orthodox JSS without any Christianity.

I also noticed that Gātha are essentially set to Christian tunes. Actually, they have an organ even at Tsukiji Hongwanji in Tokyo. This is an outward form, however. Despite being the opposite of many peoples' tastes these days, they were seen as progressive at the time they were introduced, I think. Anyway, I think people in BCA have an attachment to the Christian sounding hymns and I think they are unlikely to change anytime soon. But I do know that they give some Buddhists considering Jōdo Shinshū from other traditions an odd first impression which might not be in the best service of the tradition. I think, at the end of the day, this is more a matter of what the sangha likes. I heard some sanghas just recite in English and don't have gāthas but that it didn't catch on.

But anyway, it is not just an American thing. It comes along with the whole "modernization" going on in the Meiji and Taisho period in Japan as well.
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Re: Neurodharma by Rick Hanson

Post by muni »

I see grace as a spontanity of action body speech and mind. Gentle, careful, mindful, compassionate, beyond any boundaries like religion. I could be wrong.

I am thinking on Tara.
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Re: Neurodharma by Rick Hanson

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha can be thought of as enlightenment, the communication of enlightenment, and the physical manifestation of enlightenment. They have their esoteric equivalents too: Dharmakaya, Sambogakaya, and Nirmanakaya. Put the two ideas together and you get a definition for Sambogakaya as “the esoteric communication of enlightenment“.

I don’t dismiss the idea of grace in Vajrayana. YMMV.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Neurodharma by Rick Hanson

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

:good:
muni wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:57 am I see grace as a spontanity of action body speech and mind. Gentle, careful, mindful, compassionate, beyond any boundaries like religion. I could be wrong.

I am thinking on Tara.
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Re: Grace in Buddhism

Post by LetGo »

Zhen Li wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:08 amBloom knew Shinran quite well. If you read his works, such as Essential Shinran, this will be evident. I have heard the title of his dissertation but never actually came across a copy or PDF, so I cannot comment. Unfortunately, as covered in an old thread on this board, Bloom seems to have admitted to Richard St. Clair that he didn't actually believe in Amida. I don't think he had ulterior motives but I cannot comment on any of his works except Essential Shinran, which personally I find entirely orthodox JSS without any Christianity.
In the past I read through Bloom's online course and I do agree with you, he knew the material. I have a sneaking suspicion that early on Bloom was more likely to borrow language from his evangelical background when describing Shin, but I have absolutely no evidence for this outside of the title of his 1963 book (which I haven't read). The reviews I've seen of that first book even seem to indicate that it was a scholarly work. So probably bad example there.
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