Self and Other?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Tirisilex
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Self and Other?

Post by Tirisilex »

What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
reiun
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by reiun »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
No self implies no selves.
Malcolm
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by Malcolm »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
In what context?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

reiun wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:14 pm
Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
No self implies no selves.
Just as no elf implies no elves.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
reiun
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by reiun »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:29 pm
reiun wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:14 pm
Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
No self implies no selves.
Just as no elf implies no elves.
Well, than that puts me out of business! lol
reiun
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by reiun »

The Thirty-­Seven Practices of the Bodhisattva by Tokme Zangpo (1245–1369):

Whatever arises in experience is your own mind.

Mind itself is free of any conceptual limitations.

Know that and don’t generate self-­other fixations—

this is the practice of a bodhisattva.
Tirisilex
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by Tirisilex »

Like are people dualistic or non dualistic?
reiun
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by reiun »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:49 pm Like are people dualistic or non dualistic?
You might be better served broaching questions with a teacher.
muni
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by muni »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
By identification with thoughts, body.. ( aggregates), there is a sense arisen of independent self, me. Automatically by that other are perceived, and protection of that self arises.

Then relationship is often by attachment or by aversion, so not healthy.

Awareness is then lost.

Some practices can bring it back; like remembering the Master, TongLen or exchanging self with other.

If possible, ask a Master. I wish you can. And be surrounded by spiritual friends, inspiring you.
Usually what helps: the other is more important than oneself, the other its happiness is more important. These could as well release the strong habit of persisting grasping to self, by what suffering arises.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
Do you mean, what gives rise to the experience or you might say appearance of self and other, of things existing as self and other?

I can’t recall a specific sutra in which the Buddha was asked about this specifically, in those exact terms, but in general, all experiences and arising of appearances tend to come from ignorance.
...Which doesn’t really tell you a whole lot!

However, if you piece together various teachings in which specific arisings occur, and refer to his explanations of how they occur, then because they all occur as aspects of self/other, you can deduce from that a sort of general, if not lengthy understanding.

The short answer (more or less) is that there is awareness. Anything that awareness is aware of is an object of awareness. Due to perceiving objects of awareness as inherently existing (thinking a table has inherent “tableness” to it) this reflects back in a sense, and the thought of “self” arises. In other words, there’s a table and therefore “I”exist because “I” see the table. But the “I” part of it is total fabrication. And there was never any “tableness” there either. Only components. So therefore, self and other was all just a big misunderstanding!
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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LastLegend
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by LastLegend »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
What sees self, inside, or outside?
It’s eye blinking.
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tkp67
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by tkp67 »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:49 pm Like are people dualistic or non dualistic?
the human mind has the tendency to define reality through dualistic boundaries. This is problematic for many reasons. The middle way is taught as a means to transcend this propensity (not simply split down the middle).

As it can be subtle and quite pervasive more engaged guidance might prove beneficial.
muni
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by muni »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:49 pm Like are people dualistic or non dualistic?
Our habitual duality, what is due to experience of independent me-mind, is what sees all what appears and all what it hears, feels as being other. But in this case all seen, heard, thought- phenomena should be able to stand alone as solidities, not by an experiencing perceiving mind. I cannot take a thought out of mind and clasify it in a small collection box as being the best ever.

And that perceiving mind should then as well be alone in separation with all appearances and be a possession by me-idea. Again then duality.

As well you cannot be without me and visa versa, I appear in your mind, you in mine. We cannot be without. Since you are my mind, I cannot throw you out. Okay, I do not want that, also I see in no any way how. :smile:

Whether the mind is in Tokyo with a crowd of people, or in the desert of Mongolia, or in the back yard, none of these perceptions are belonging to the mind nor are they different than mind. All what appear in mind as other is not other.

When minds' grasping loses, then all is not so solid on itself anymore. Like a mirror leaving all what is, as all is impermanent, no need to hold on anything, the Mind is as a vast unsubstantial mirror is there been said.

Not sure this helps in any way, words are said to be easy formed. While meditation guidance can be very helpful.

Then:
http://drikungdharmasurya.org/2015/10/m ... nd-others/
muni
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Re: Self and Other?

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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Tirisilex wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 pm What did the Buddha say on the relationship of self and other? I Googled It and all I get is Self and no self.
In Mahayana, self and other could mean me and other people, ie. how we feel about each other and relate in relationships. That is on the level of relative bodhicitta, ie. Compassion and all these beautiful qualities of heart.

It could also mean our dualistic view, ie. the conceptual framework of how we experience the world. Here, self and other is a sort of shorthand for all of duality, our mind’s dualistic (ie. false) experience of everything. The self is obviously “me” and the other would be everything else, “not me.” This is more on the wisdom level, where we are looking into the ultimate reality of things. The duality of “me” and everything else is an entire edifice of illusion, and when we see through it, we won’t be caught by it.

Here is James Low talking about duality from a madhyamaka kind of Dzogchen view:


We should ask ourselves, “What is the real problem with duality?”

When we begin to see what duality is and why it’s so seductive and harmful, this perspective becomes the launching point for real wisdom.
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Budai
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by Budai »

I see the Buddha point is away from grasping at anything in the Saha world.

Non-self, no self, no separately existing self...

But Only:

Emptiness.

:heart:
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Ayu
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Re: Self and Other?

Post by Ayu »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 7:17 am I see the Buddha point is away from grasping at anything in the Saha world.

Non-self, no self, no separately existing self...

But Only:

Emptiness.

:heart:
Note, that emptiness is "empty" as well. This means emptiness is dependently arising, not independent as well. It needs something to be empty of.
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