One Path Or Two?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
reiun
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am I was practicing Pure Land...for a little bit. I couldn’t focus on recitation for too long. It was a hard practice man. Then I aspired to follow a quick path to enlightenment because I was suffering. Then Chan came along. I now understand recitation in the subtle way. It depends on individual’s aspiration that’s what leads them. If you follow Tibetan, and you want the quickest path, they have their direct lineages.
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am So yes, you can practice both.
Unless, of course, you have an honest and thorough commitment with one teacher. Then it is one teacher only, one-at-a-time only.
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LastLegend
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by LastLegend »

reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:57 am
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am I was practicing Pure Land...for a little bit. I couldn’t focus on recitation for too long. It was a hard practice man. Then I aspired to follow a quick path to enlightenment because I was suffering. Then Chan came along. I now understand recitation in the subtle way. It depends on individual’s aspiration that’s what leads them. If you follow Tibetan, and you want the quickest path, they have their direct lineages.
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am So yes, you can practice both.
Unless, of course, you have an honest and thorough commitment with one teacher. Then it is one teacher only, one-at-a-time only.
You are right.
It’s eye blinking.
Malcolm
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:57 am
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am I was practicing Pure Land...for a little bit. I couldn’t focus on recitation for too long. It was a hard practice man. Then I aspired to follow a quick path to enlightenment because I was suffering. Then Chan came along. I now understand recitation in the subtle way. It depends on individual’s aspiration that’s what leads them. If you follow Tibetan, and you want the quickest path, they have their direct lineages.
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am So yes, you can practice both.
Unless, of course, you have an honest and thorough commitment with one teacher. Then it is one teacher only, one-at-a-time only.
No, this is an unnecessary limitation.
reiun
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:04 am
reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:57 am
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am I was practicing Pure Land...for a little bit. I couldn’t focus on recitation for too long. It was a hard practice man. Then I aspired to follow a quick path to enlightenment because I was suffering. Then Chan came along. I now understand recitation in the subtle way. It depends on individual’s aspiration that’s what leads them. If you follow Tibetan, and you want the quickest path, they have their direct lineages.
LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am So yes, you can practice both.
Unless, of course, you have an honest and thorough commitment with one teacher. Then it is one teacher only, one-at-a-time only.
No, this is an unnecessary limitation.
I never experienced an honest and thorough commitment with one teacher at a time as an unnecessary limitation. As they died, or I moved on, I continued to try to actualize their precious teachings. I learned over time from lectures, dharma talks, readings, etc., from many, but I would not undertake koan practice, or a formal teacher/student relationship, with more than one teacher at a time, or even heard of anyone else who did or would. I do appreciate that your comment, no doubt inadvertently, reminds of the late 60's general ethos, though (which was a favorite time of mine).

So perhaps it is not uncommon in Tibetan tradition for a student to have several teacher relationships simultaneously? Please say more about that.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

LastLegend wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:07 am
Silencemonkey

I was practicing Pure Land...for a little bit. I couldn’t focus on recitation for too long. It was a hard practice man. Then I aspired to follow a quick path to enlightenment because I was suffering. Then Chan came along. I now understand recitation in the subtle way. It depends on individual’s aspiration that’s what leads them. If you follow Tibetan, and you want the quickest path, they have their direct lineages.
So yes, you can practice both.
Yeah, I think pureland and chan are a very good combination. The systems have actually evolved together to support each other, growing in the same cultural melting pot. I seem to remember a few works translated by Thomas Cleary on the union of Pure Land and Zen. Even Xu Yun recommended pure land practice as a fail safe for Chan practitioners who didn't have what it takes to become Buddha in one lifetime. (Which is almost everybody)

Master Sheng Yen also taught ways to practice many methods in different schools of chinese mahayana in a Chan way. It was one of his great achievements, to find the unity of all traditions in china and teach a coherent system of where the pieces fit together, what to practice, and when.

Even Theravada would probably fit more or less into his system. But I wonder about tantra... I have no idea. Maybe it would take someone experienced and well versed in both systems to show you how to put them together, otherwise you'd have to sort of reinvent the wheel.

But really, what do I know... just a few rambling thoughts.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:52 am
So perhaps it is not uncommon in Tibetan tradition for a student to have several teacher relationships simultaneously? Please say more about that.
In Tibetan Buddhism, it is very common to have many teachers simultaneously.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Giovanni »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:23 pm
reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:52 am
So perhaps it is not uncommon in Tibetan tradition for a student to have several teacher relationships simultaneously? Please say more about that.
In Tibetan Buddhism, it is very common to have many teachers simultaneously.
What would be unusual is for a Vajrayana teacher to recommend Guru Yoga combined with Gohonzon..for example.
reiun
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:23 pm
reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:52 am
So perhaps it is not uncommon in Tibetan tradition for a student to have several teacher relationships simultaneously? Please say more about that.
In Tibetan Buddhism, it is very common to have many teachers simultaneously.
Ah, I see, thanks!
Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:23 pm No, this is an unnecessary limitation.
But I would nonetheless disagree here. Quantity doesn't guarantee quality.
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Matt J
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Matt J »

It is sort of a cheat for a Vajrayana person to say "one tradition" when that tradition is composed of multiple traditions as it is. Breath or object based shamatha for example isn't a Theravada thing, you can find it in Mahamudra manuals. And Tibetan Buddhism also preserves both more yogi (Mahamudra) and pandit (Madhyamaka) type teachings. Plus, you have ethical teachings, Mahayana teachings, Tantric teachings, subtle energy teachings, etc.

Of course, one can be a dilettante within a single Vajrayana school. The encyclopedic nature of Vajrayana is both a strength and a weakness.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Norwegian »

Matt J wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:37 pm The encyclopedic nature of Vajrayana is both a strength and a weakness.
There are no "weaknesses" in the teachings of the Buddhas. There's only different students of different capacities.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:13 pm
But I would nonetheless disagree here. Quantity doesn't guarantee quality.
Neither does picking only one teacher to work with. It is impossible for an ordinary person to judge the realization or lack thereof, of anyone else, let alone this or that given teacher. Even of one imagines one is picking a teacher who is equal in realization to the Buddha himself, this is only the opinion of an ordinary person and nothing more.

People accept teachers entirely based on rumor, hearsay, fame, accolades, in other words, based on reputation alone. Confirmation bias is a strong factor here.
reiun
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:21 pm
reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:13 pm
But I would nonetheless disagree here. Quantity doesn't guarantee quality.
Neither does picking only one teacher to work with. It is impossible for an ordinary person to judge the realization or lack thereof, of anyone else, let alone this or that given teacher. Even of one imagines one is picking a teacher who is equal in realization to the Buddha himself, this is only the opinion of an ordinary person and nothing more.
Well, I fit the "ordinary" classification, but it was certainly crystal clear to me, especially at a certain point, what my teacher's ability was, which was tied to his realization.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:21 pm People accept teachers entirely based on rumor, hearsay, fame, accolades, in other words, based on reputation alone. Confirmation bias is a strong factor here.
I traveled coast-to-coast to visit teachers whose books or other writings I had read, and became a guest student at each monastery. Much as therapeutic bond is important in sticking with a doctor, a somewhat corresponding relationship is essential, I believe, to go forward with a teacher, rather than relying on rumor, hearsay, fame, and accolades.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:56 pm
Well, I fit the "ordinary" classification, but it was certainly crystal clear to me, especially at a certain point, what my teacher's ability was, which was tied to his realization.
There is no objective standard by which such attributions of realization can be measured. It's is all just hearsay. What you just engaged in was hearsay. In other words, you decided, based on criteria you are not sharing, that your teacher was a realized person (which you have not defined). Now, you have shared your opinion and I read that your statement. This is exactly what hearsay is. There is no proof, nor can there be. Thus, all such claims are rumor, etc, as I have mentioned. If I claim, for example, that my guru is a realized person, you have no way to check this and no reason to believe me.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

To me a bigger question is whether Tibetan traditions can coexist with East Asian traditions or Theravada. Anyone in tibetan Buddhism could tell you that most masters today have had many gurus, and some of them have had more than one root guru. Mingyur Rinpoche has four! And a number of zen masters have had more than one teacher, although the model is to study under one only.

For me, it is a matter of finding practitioners who have walked the path. The ones who have successfully incorporated Theravada with Chan, for instance. Or Chan with Tibetan Dharma. And seeing how they do it. My feeling is that many more have tried than have been successful at integrating. But there are people who do it well. Alan Wallace is coming to mind, as an example of someone who has practiced deeply in Geluk, Nyingma and Thai Theravada.

Perhaps the nature of zen is that such a singular focus is required. One does only one practice, follows the instructions of only one teacher. More than that is seen as distraction. But I wonder if the same is true for other traditions.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:14 pm
reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:56 pm
Well, I fit the "ordinary" classification, but it was certainly crystal clear to me, especially at a certain point, what my teacher's ability was, which was tied to his realization.
There is no objective standard by which such attributions of realization can be measured.
No, there are just attempts like this to define realization, emphasizing levels:
Sutra on the Eight Realizations By Thich Nhat Hanh
Why such should be measured according to an objective standard is not a concern of mine.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:14 pm It's is all just hearsay. What you just engaged in was hearsay.
Uh oh, Now I am in trouble!
Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:14 pm In other words, you decided, based on criteria you are not sharing, that your teacher was a realized person (which you have not defined).
No, I referred to his ability, and that this is tied to a level of realization. To me this is a no-brainer, and I also mean that literally: in what I am familiar with, in my school, it is not an intellectual experience.

The heart of the teacher/student relationship, for me, was always dokusan, which is private. So no, I won't be sharing.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:14 pm Now, you have shared your opinion and I read that your statement. This is exactly what hearsay is. There is no proof, nor can there be. Thus, all such claims are rumor, etc, as I have mentioned. If I claim, for example, that my guru is a realized person, you have no way to check this and no reason to believe me.
Well, this is all quite lawyerly, but it leaves me cold. My only argument has been that having one teacher is not a limitation, as you stated.

If you need a last word, it is all yours.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:31 pm My only argument has been that having one teacher is not a limitation, as you stated.
You argued:
Unless, of course, you have an honest and thorough commitment with one teacher. Then it is one teacher only, one-at-a-time only.
This is the limitation I mentioned. One can have an honest and thorough commitment with more than one teacher at a time. YMMV. But you stated this as an absolute. It may be the case in your tradition, but you cannot generalize to other traditions, as you have done here, inadvertently or not.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

We have to define here what is meant by "have a teacher" here.

I have someone I consider a root Guru, and two other teachers who I listen particularly closely, one of whom I have a personal relationship, and one I don't, simply because they have lots of students.

However, I've taken teachings from scores of teachers. I don't consider the scores invalid, I just have a much more defined relationship with the first category.

I mean "having one teacher" could literally just mean one teacher with whom you have a personal relationship. You could listen to them to the extent that you actually refuse to even read other teachers. This approach is out there, personally I think it's bunk.

On the other hand, you could have one or a handful of people you consider authorities that really speak your language, literally or figuratively. So you read other stuff, and are mainly responsible for your own practice, checking in with teachers when you can or need to. I opt for this relationship personally.

Here is some advice I read years ago from Tenzin Wangyal that is very practical in my opinion:
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche: In order to mature on the spiritual path, it is important to have a teacher with whom you make a heart connection. When you receive instruction from that teacher, you need to take those instructions into your life and practice them until you have experiences and realization. This process requires trust, love, and commitment.

There are individuals with enough realization, and more important, stability, who can be exposed to many ideas and process them without weakening their commitment and the stability of their practice. If someone is open, capable, and stable, then it is fine to learn from different teachers and traditions— and areas outside of Buddhism, such as science, anthropology, and philosophy. But while there is no limit to what we can learn from others, it is important to narrow down the number of practices you engage in, because practice requires long and deep commitment in order to bear fruit.

It is important to explore what’s motivating you to leam from many traditions and teachers. Listen deeply to discern if you are in search mode, driven by an underlying feeling of dissatisfaction. Without realizing it, we can spend years in this mode, wandering and collecting knowledge, all the while not connecting with our underlying hunger. If this is the case, we are not really trying to find a teacher or to become more intimate with our actual experience. This is a form of spiritual materialism, and it is an obstacle to spiritual realization. If you look more deeply and honestly you may realize that you are lost, and this realization can be a genuine beginning to your path.

If this is the case, it is important first and foremost to find a teacher you respect and will come to love, and a path and practice you can commit to, then dedicate enough time with that teacher and the teachings and practices to develop confidence and maturity. During this time you can be open to others, not replacing or rejecting your master or your practice, but complementing, enriching, and expanding your life. However, if in listening to others you become confused, stop and concentrate on your path.

Confusion is the sign you must not ignore. First, we acknowledge our confusion in order to recognize the need for a teacher and a path, and later our pain continues to guide us to deepen our commitment and realization. Pain or insecurity is always the sign to stop and deepen your connection with yourself rather than to search outside yourself to fill what is missing.

As humans, we can love every human being, be inspired by many people, and have deep friendships with some. But we can’t build deep intimate relationships with everybody. If your main relationship is not deep enough, then having relationships with many people can create instability. For example, a husband or wife has spiritual and emotional and physical intimacy with their partner, and that person can also have emotional intimate relations with a small group or family. They can have true dharma brothers and sisters and a sense of emotional commitment, a feeling that they would do anything to help them and be present for them. But if you expand more than you are capable of, it causes confusion and you don’t reach your full capacity as a human. In the process of expanding, you may disconnect from those with whom you do have intimacy.

My advice is to listen with your heart and also analyze with your intellect to see if there is value in the criticism that you are not focusing solely on one path. Do you have a path, a practice, and a teacher you truly follow? If not, the first priority is to find that. Once you find that connection, you will be able to deepen spiritual intimacy through practice and commitment. Then, when you listen to other teachers who might have different views, it is not masking your confusion or adding to it; instead, it is enriching your life. But you must reflect and know your own capacity. Others cannot truly discern this for you. Only you can follow your heart and know whether you are in true relationship with your path. 0

It's worth noting, some of what Rinpoche talks about above can happen within one tradition as well.
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Malcolm
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:06 pm To me a bigger question is whether Tibetan traditions can coexist with East Asian traditions or Theravada.
I know a lot of people who started in EA or SEA Buddhism, and moved to Tibetan Buddhism. I don't really know that many folks who went the other way. But then I don't spend any time in EA or SEA Buddhist circles, so I would be unlikely to know such folks.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by Genjo Conan »

I'll acknowledge up front that I'm splitting hairs, but: as a Soto Zen practitioner, there's only one person who I would consider "my teacher," and if I came to consider someone else "my teacher," it would mean changing my relationship with my current teacher. That said, I'll happily attend talks and classes, read texts, etc. from teachers both within and outside of my own tradition, and feel that I've learned a lot from them. And there are teachers, apart from my current teacher, with whom I have a meaningful ongoing relationship. But there's still only one who I'd consider "my teacher." Like I said, it's probably hair splitting.
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Re: One Path Or Two?

Post by LastLegend »

Although teachers are needed and many have teachers, the reality of having a one on one relationship with trust is still rare.
It’s eye blinking.
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