Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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Sunrise
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Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Sunrise »

I met someone who was interested in developing a meditation practice, and who also had interest in taking psychedelics. I wanted to warn her not to take drugs because I believe it could not only be harmful to her physical health, but also impede her meditation practice. Does anyone know how drugs harm our ability to meditate? I think it has something to do with a disruption of our subtle energies, but I'm not knowledgeable about this.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Malcolm »

Sunrise wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm I met someone who was interested in developing a meditation practice, and who also had interest in taking psychedelics. I wanted to warn her not to take drugs because I believe it could not only be harmful to her physical health, but also impede her meditation practice. Does anyone know how drugs harm our ability to meditate? I think it has something to do with a disruption of our subtle energies, but I'm not knowledgeable about this.
Can disrupt our vata/lung/energy.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Lord Guatama Buddha designated refraining from intoxicants as one of the five vows for laymen, and thus a core vinaya vow for monks as well. It's one of the most basic parts of being Buddhist.

One argument used is that it causes heedlessness and the breaking of other vows. There is an old tale to such effect:

According to the Mahavibhasa Sutra, there was a layman in India who, after drinking alcohol, stole a chicken from his neighbour (a violation of the no stealing precept) and then killed it for food to go with the alcohol (a violation of the no killing precept). When his neighbour started to look for her chicken, the man lied to her by saying that he had not seen it (a violation of the no lying precept), at the same time, he saw how beautiful this neighbour was so he sexually harassed her (a violation of the no sexual misconduct precept). Drinking dulls one's awareness of shame and conscience, and because of drinking, the precepts of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, and lying are all violated. Therefore, it is important to abstain from drinking.

That said, in Japan the priests think nothing of drinking as much as they like because they are ordained according to the Bodhisattva Precepts alone and not the original Vinaya, which is considered "hinyanistic" and thus unnecessary for Mahayana clerics. Needless to say their Theravada cousins look on them with disgust and horror many times.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:08 pm Lord Guatama Buddha designated refraining from intoxicants as one of the five vows for laymen, and thus a core vinaya vow for monks as well. It's one of the most basic parts of being Buddhist.
No, it’s not a core vinaya vow. It’s one of the 90 or minor Vinaya vows. The core vows are the four defeats. There is no fifth defeat.

Of the five basic prātimokṣa for lay people, it is the only one that is a prohibition through declaration, rather than a natural nonvirtue. This means that intoxication is not a natural misdeed. It’s prohibited because it can lead to natural misdeeds, murder, rape, theft, and lying.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Hazel »

The purpose of meditation is primarily to train your mind, not have nifty experiences. If you want nifty experiences, just take the psychedelics on their own and save meditation for later.

There was a period where I was doing psychedelics most days of the week. I have a hard time believing one can efficiently train their mind while on them.

Also if you do a drug to an enhance an activity, eventually you can't do that activity without the drug. I know this from a LOT of first hand experience with other activities. I think this often manifests for folks as a lack of motivation. Lack of motivation is not going to help your practice.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:14 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:08 pm Lord Guatama Buddha designated refraining from intoxicants as one of the five vows for laymen, and thus a core vinaya vow for monks as well. It's one of the most basic parts of being Buddhist.
No, it’s not a core vinaya vow. It’s one of the 90 or minor Vinaya vows. The core vows are the four defeats. There is no fifth defeat.

Of the five basic prātimokṣa for lay people, it is the only one that is a prohibition through declaration, rather than a natural nonvirtue. This means that intoxication is not a natural misdeed. It’s prohibited because it can lead to natural misdeeds, murder, rape, theft, and lying.
Interesting. But it's so basic to practice for millions of lay buddhists who never make that distinction.

So if you break it as a layman, versus breaking one of the other four lay vows, are there any practical differences in how you would repent, etc? Because personally I've never heard of such a distinction.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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Sunrise wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm I met someone who was interested in developing a meditation practice, and who also had interest in taking psychedelics. I wanted to warn her not to take drugs because I believe it could not only be harmful to her physical health, but also impede her meditation practice. Does anyone know how drugs harm our ability to meditate? I think it has something to do with a disruption of our subtle energies, but I'm not knowledgeable about this.
As noted by M it disturbs our internal energy. But drugs also stimulate delusion directly and will tend to disrupt our ability to concentrate. So what I mean by stimulate delusion directly is that when you relax your mind delusive thoughts will tend to proliferate. This is a result in part of the disturbance of our internal energy but can also be a direct effect from the drugs themselves (long after taking drugs).

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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:14 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:08 pm Lord Guatama Buddha designated refraining from intoxicants as one of the five vows for laymen, and thus a core vinaya vow for monks as well. It's one of the most basic parts of being Buddhist.
No, it’s not a core vinaya vow. It’s one of the 90 or minor Vinaya vows. The core vows are the four defeats. There is no fifth defeat.

Of the five basic prātimokṣa for lay people, it is the only one that is a prohibition through declaration, rather than a natural nonvirtue. This means that intoxication is not a natural misdeed. It’s prohibited because it can lead to natural misdeeds, murder, rape, theft, and lying.
Interesting. But it's so basic to practice for millions of lay buddhists who never make that distinction.

So if you break it as a layman, versus breaking one of the other four lay vows, are there any practical differences in how you would repent, etc? Because personally I've never heard of such a distinction.
Actually, as a lay person, one has a choice to follow it or not. In the Tibetan tradition we purify all vows with the practice of Vajrasattva. Also, bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows take precedence.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Malcolm wrote: Actually, as a lay person, one has a choice to follow it or not. In the Tibetan tradition we purify all vows with the practice of Vajrasattva. Also, bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows take precedence.
This is fascinating to me because it is not the way it is generally presented to laymen in most of East Asia if they wish to become an upasaka/upasika. Japan as noted is a bit of a special case.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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In the Southern Buddhist Sect in Vietnam, monks are allowed to smoke tobacco.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Psychedelic experiences can open your mind to a lot of things (hence the name, ‘psychedelic’ meaning ‘mind expanding’) but it’s still the same mind. It hasn’t really gone anywhere. Psychedelic experiences can also allow one to experience the Dharma teachings in a seemingly more profound way. I say, ‘seemingly’ because maybe sometimes it really will, and you’ll get some insight that sticks with you, and other times it just seems like it because you are tripping.

But even the experiences that stick with you, you have to be careful not to stick to them. They are just brief moments of inspiration, not great achievements.

And when it comes to actual meditation, psychedelics can only be a distraction. It’s like, I know a painter who drinks probably too much wine and smokes a bunch of weed and when doing so, gets all kinds of fantastic ideas for artwork. But when it’s time to actually go into the studio and paint, he just grabs a coffee, because you have to be able to actually function. You can have all sorts of great visions or whatever while tripping. But you will just have to set them aside again if they pop up in your thoughts while meditating.

If you do psychedelics and then try to meditate, you won’t be tripping while meditating. You’ll be not-meditating while tripping.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Actually, as a lay person, one has a choice to follow it or not. In the Tibetan tradition we purify all vows with the practice of Vajrasattva. Also, bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows take precedence.
This is fascinating to me because it is not the way it is generally presented to laymen in most of East Asia if they wish to become an upasaka/upasika. Japan as noted is a bit of a special case.
This is explicitly outlined by Vasubandhu in his commentary on the Abhidharmakośa, so it is a principle that will not be unknown to educated East Asian Buddhists.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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Sunrise wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm I met someone who was interested in developing a meditation practice, and who also had interest in taking psychedelics. I wanted to warn her not to take drugs because I believe it could not only be harmful to her physical health, but also impede her meditation practice. Does anyone know how drugs harm our ability to meditate? I think it has something to do with a disruption of our subtle energies, but I'm not knowledgeable about this.
Mainly they make completely mundane, unimportant experiences seem profound. This is a literal effect of many drugs - lending a false sense of profundity to experiences. Psychedelics and marijuana in larger amounts both do this, but I've interviewed enough people with substance use disorders to say that quite a few of them insist there is something spiritual, profound, or therapeutic there. Even with drugs like meth.

So, in this sense they obscure one from insight, because while on the drug (and with some drugs, for some time afterwards) you are unable to distinguish what is a profound insight and what is just gobbledegook nonsense. Don't believe me? Go hang out with people doing pyschedelics, sometimes even potheads if they smoke enough. There are all kinds of revelations and talks about the profundity of this or that that turn out to just be mental garbage, and do not stand the test of time once one is longer using, or simply not using for a certain period of time. I've been there myself.

I'm not a moralizer about it, I think it's ok to get high for fun as long as you don't have an issue with it, and aren't using a drug that is basically bad news for anyone who uses it (e.g. Meth, Heroin, etc.) They do muddle the mind though, and we are confused enough, for the most part.

I think it's more unhealthy to get high a lot and claim you are doing something spiritual than it is to just get high because you want to.

Amount, intention, baseline mental health, social situation etc. matter a lot with substance use, and how it ends up affecting people.

My take on the meditation bit specifically:

A meditator is trying to recognize the nature of their mind, many substances just make people enamored, sometimes even fixated with their own thoughts - with the content of their mind rather than it's nature, and in that sense they can obscure people from seeing it's nature.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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Thank you all for the replies!
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:24 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Actually, as a lay person, one has a choice to follow it or not. In the Tibetan tradition we purify all vows with the practice of Vajrasattva. Also, bodhisattva and Vajrayana vows take precedence.
This is fascinating to me because it is not the way it is generally presented to laymen in most of East Asia if they wish to become an upasaka/upasika. Japan as noted is a bit of a special case.
This is explicitly outlined by Vasubandhu in his commentary on the Abhidharmakośa, so it is a principle that will not be unknown to educated East Asian Buddhists.
Would you recommend Jewels from the Treasury as a good text to introduce abhidharma to beginners?
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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

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Sunrise wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:46 pm I met someone who was interested in developing a meditation practice, and who also had interest in taking psychedelics. I wanted to warn her not to take drugs because I believe it could not only be harmful to her physical health, but also impede her meditation practice. Does anyone know how drugs harm our ability to meditate? I think it has something to do with a disruption of our subtle energies, but I'm not knowledgeable about this.
Most peoples thoughts are already short enough without taking drugs. :)

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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Budai »

The very important question is will you be a better Bodhisattva on or off of drugs? For those who need your help. I think in nearly most instances it’s better not to take drugs for that reason.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by amanitamusc »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:24 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:36 pm

This is fascinating to me because it is not the way it is generally presented to laymen in most of East Asia if they wish to become an upasaka/upasika. Japan as noted is a bit of a special case.
This is explicitly outlined by Vasubandhu in his commentary on the Abhidharmakośa, so it is a principle that will not be unknown to educated East Asian Buddhists.
Would you recommend Jewels from the Treasury as a good text to introduce abhidharma to beginners?
Vol 1-4
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by anagarika »

I´m afraid this isnt´t even a debate :/ There are two extremely simple reasons why drugs aren´t a possibility for meditators:

1) Buddhist meditation is about taking some things away from your mind, not adding anything to it. The progression of jhanas, for instance, is characterized by gradual simplification - going from more complex and gross states to increasingly more refined and "primal" ones (with each step, you take something away from the previous state - first you get rid of the five hindrances, establish yourself in the first jhana, then you take away the vitaka and vicara factor, then the piti, then the sukha and so on...).

2) In the whole Pali canon, there is not a single mention by the Buddha about using psychoactive substances for the practice of dharma. On the contrary, he clearly speaks against them on several occasions so there´s clearly a disjunctive relationship.

That being said, your friend can of course feel like she can meditate and do psychedelics, but it won´t be a Buddhist meditation. There are all kinds of "meditation", even materialists, New Age people, Hindus etc. can meditate, but it is not the type of meditation that leads to Buddhist goals. If your friend is serious about the 8fold path and drugs do not fall away from her spontaneously, she´s doing something wrong - probably at the level of right view.
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Re: Why drugs are bad for meditators?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

amanitamusc wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:38 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:24 pm

This is explicitly outlined by Vasubandhu in his commentary on the Abhidharmakośa, so it is a principle that will not be unknown to educated East Asian Buddhists.
Would you recommend Jewels from the Treasury as a good text to introduce abhidharma to beginners?
Vol 1-4
Thanks
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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