Is Buddhism necessary?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
karmanyingpo
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by karmanyingpo »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:01 am Hi everyone!

Sometimes a doubt crosses my mind: what if all this Buddhism is just a big fuss over nothing?

I mainly studied the Soto Zen tradition and I have been practising Zazen (Zen meditation) twice a day for almost 10 years. Although there is a side of me that thinks Buddhism is the only way to go. Sometimes I have some doubts, like:
- It appears to me that Buddhist and non-Buddhist have the same quality of life; random people that seem ok and random Buddhist that seem tangled in their own problem.
- When people say "don't overthink stuff" it can be pretty close to what a generic meditation is.
- I think Buddhism changed me from being a deeply neurotic person to a normal guy, but what if is just the common growing and life experiences and that has nothing to do with Buddhism?
- Buddhist is great! Why not everyone is Buddhist? Why among my peer and relatives I'm the only one?

Do you also have these doubts? Any comment?

Thanks :smile:
My two cents:

Same quality of life - maybe at a given slice in time, but temporary happiness and ultimate happiness are not the same.
Without Dharma our happiness is like a raft swept to and fro and up and down by conditions. Happiness is conditional, bound to what goes on around us, the circumstances of life and our relationships. Dharma leads us toward unconditional happiness that can be joyful even when things around us are falling apart.

We also need to distinguish between Buddhists who are Buddhist as a religious identity and Buddhists who actually practice actively (the two are a venn diagram and overlap but are not fully the same group)

I think if you looked at practitioners versus non practitioners and their PERCEIVED quality of life or happiness LONGETUDINALLY over time then I think you would find a difference with practitioners being happier on average over the course of a longer time but that is just my speculation personally, no evidence for it I can give you.. At the very least I think they would relate to their unhappiness in a more resilient way

People can also have temporary happiness or condiitonal happiness for quite a long time in a diluded state... This is why the saying ignorance is bliss exists. It's bliss until the conditions that prop it up are slipped out from under you and then your world crumbles!

Don't overthink stuff yes but think of the teachings on topics like inter dependant origination, shunyata etc. Those are unique and not just "don't over think" and chill out
Close is not the same.... Once I heard, there is a hairs breadth between shunyata and nihilism. Nihilism is one of the teachings preached against by the Buddha... So EVEN A hairs breadth difference can make a huge difference

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I think zen in the west doesn't talk much about reincarnation, which to me is the central question of the buddhist path.

Zen takes a radical stance on reincarnation (aka Samsara, often translated as "the question of Life and Death"). In order to cut away the delusions of past and future, it tends to talk about reincarnation less in terms of past and future lives and talks about the past and future more in terms of moments in time. No past, no future! Naturally, zen people in the west gravitate towards this understanding. And because it's so hard for us as a culture to wrap our minds around the possibility of reincarnation, western zen often doesn't even deal with it. This radical zen view of samsara was an enhancement of the understanding of past and future lives, not a replacement of it.

Zen has methods to liberate us from samsara in this very moment... but being liberated actually means that we won't reincarnate like all the other unenlightened beings in existence. If we come back after liberation, it will be as a Bodhisattva.
SaaZ
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by SaaZ »

Telling the whole situation, I just dropped out from a job it took me years to reach; at the moment I am still a bit burned by it. Apathetic as I am, the only thing that at the moment makes sense is Buddhism, but I sometimes fear that I'm coping with it, hence the doubts.
I think I need to meet real practitioners, go to a monastery, and talk to them.

Thank you all! :smile:
master of puppets
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by master of puppets »

SaaZ wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:33 pm I think I need to meet real practitioners, go to a monastery, and talk to them.

Thank you all! :smile:
Wherever you go, at the end of the day you have to practice.
neander
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by neander »

Buddhism is not for everybody and is still a minority group so it is not necessary.

The two most powerful men on this planet controlling together 10000 ICBM are not Buddhist..

If you do not make progress change.. inside or even outside Buddhism..

But out of the 3000 religions or so listed on wikipedia , if you think that your happiness does not have to be dependent by the whims of some gods, there is only one way, the way of Buddha.
master of puppets
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by master of puppets »

how hard could it be to do nothing?
anagarika
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by anagarika »

Wow, such an interesting debate going on here!

I could very easily assume the role of the Devil´s advocate here since I myself have been putting the dharma under scrupulous scrutiny and making it the subject of extensive critique for more than 7 years. I´ve contrasted it to all relevant religions and philosophies and challenged it with some very serious questions. I´ve tried to improve on it, modify it, customize it. I´ve done pretty much everything to see whether this dharma truly is the ultimate teaching and remedy to suffering. After these 7 years, I´ve come to a fairly simple conclusion: Yes, it is necessary.

The thing is: Dharma may seem too pessimistic or unnecessarily harsh for someone who is temporarily free of suffering or even happy (or ecstatic, elated, unharassed and light-hearted, just as I was before I started to practice). That´s why not too many devas want to hear about it, let alone practice it, right... It is so incredibly easy to forget how fragile these beautiful and happy states of mind can be. We may perceive them as unshakable, yet sometimes it takes just one small piece falling out of the mosaic and suddenly it all crumbles down. That´s because it is not a comprehensive solution.

No other solution is comprehensive because no other solution identifies the existence itself as the problem. It is the emphasis on cessation which makes the dharma "necessary" for ending of suffering. No other solution can give you this. Buddhism is unnecessary if you are OK with suffering. If you are not, ultimately you cannot go for anything else because no other solution shows you the path to this cessation.
penalvad_uba
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by penalvad_uba »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:01 am Hi everyone!

Sometimes a doubt crosses my mind: what if all this Buddhism is just a big fuss over nothing?

...

Do you also have these doubts? Any comment?

Thanks :smile:
To your Question: Is Buddhism necessary ?

No, its not. If teaching does not touch you deep, go back to your normal life (even if you find ur life abnormal, practitioners will call your abnormal life normal). Find solutions of abnormality in your own.

BUT, your Statement : what if all this Buddhism is just a big fuss over nothing?

Is utterly misguided. To this refer to the master explanations about the difference of Nothingness, Eternal and Emptyness. Your normal life is a way to think about Nothingness OR Eternal, Emptyness is something nothing in these extremes(nor in the.middle of these).

The lasting statement of buddha is that your Normal (Nothingness and Eternality) is the same as Emptyness, but with the eyes of suffering, while emptyness are another look for the mind training.

So if the teaching does not tell you, you dont need it (even if the master is acclaimed, realized, rich, superb and.so on ...)
Last edited by penalvad_uba on Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

neander wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:59 am Buddhism is not for everybody and is still a minority group so it is not necessary.

The two most powerful men on this planet controlling together 10000 ICBM are not Buddhist..
Not necessary for society, maybe...

As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche often says, from a mundane perspective, Buddhadharma is completely useless. It won't help you make money, get a job, become better looking, find a girlfriend, rise to the top, win at politics or wars, any of that... What it's good for is becoming a better person, growing our wisdom and bringing us closer to the truth. Resolving our karma and ultimately, liberation from the cycle of rebirth.

I think this is where the teaching of our motivation comes in... Are we aiming for mundane aims or aims that will bring us the true liberation?
Malcolm
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:28 am
neander wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:59 am Buddhism is not for everybody and is still a minority group so it is not necessary.

The two most powerful men on this planet controlling together 10000 ICBM are not Buddhist..
Not necessary for society, maybe...

As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche often says, from a mundane perspective, Buddhadharma is completely useless.

True, millions of dollars are spent on the trappings of piety that would be better served funding schools and hospitals.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:33 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:28 am
neander wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:59 am Buddhism is not for everybody and is still a minority group so it is not necessary.

The two most powerful men on this planet controlling together 10000 ICBM are not Buddhist..
Not necessary for society, maybe...

As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche often says, from a mundane perspective, Buddhadharma is completely useless.

True, millions of dollars are spent on the trappings of piety that would be better served funding schools and hospitals.
I don't think that's what he meant, but it's a good point.

And then there's all that money being poured into translating the Buddhist canon, and into funding PhD's and post-docs. Not saying we shouldn't translate the kangyur, but when I saw the numbers...
Malcolm
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:47 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:33 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:28 am

Not necessary for society, maybe...

As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche often says, from a mundane perspective, Buddhadharma is completely useless.

True, millions of dollars are spent on the trappings of piety that would be better served funding schools and hospitals.
I don't think that's what he meant, but it's a good point.

And then there's all that money being poured into translating the Buddhist canon, and into funding PhD's and post-docs. Not saying we shouldn't translate the kangyur, but when I saw the numbers...
Books are better than bricks.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is Buddhism necessary?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Nothing uplifts me like studying the Dharma.

Buddhism is necessary...for me. I can't speak for others.

南無阿弥陀仏
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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