Is monastic life a right livelihood?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
SaaZ
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Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

Hello everyone,

I would like to hear your thought about a thing that keeps bothering me after many years. I have been thinking of following a monastic life for many years, almost right after I began studying Buddhism and doing meditation. However, there has always been a thing that stopped me: being a Buddhist monk seems an egoistic form of living, where one "leave" the society to develop one own personal practice, while keep being dependent from the help of the society.

This thing is not necessarily wrong, since a person can decide to live from the charity of others (like the Buddha did). However, from a personal point of view, I'm troubled by it.

If we want, we can rephrase this matter as related to the "right livelihood" of the eightfold path. From one side I feel that, to me, I might reach the right livelihood by becoming a monk and totally commit to the monastic life, on the other side I feel the that pursuing my own interest on the expenses of others cannot be a right livelihood.

Thanks for reading and for any eventual comment. :)
Brunelleschi
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Brunelleschi »

Interesting question SaaZ. I think it would be helpful for you to more closely familiarize yourself with a few key concepts in Buddhism. Such as:

  • What Samsara Really is.
  • What the purpose of practicing (Mahayana) Buddhism is.
  • Dependent Arising (emptiness).
  • Why the Buddhist view negates a creator and and a reality arising from "nothing". Compare this to Christianity and their belief in "Creatio ex nihilo".
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by kirtu »

SaaZ wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pm Hello everyone,

I would like to hear your thought about a thing that keeps bothering me after many years. I have been thinking of following a monastic life for many years, almost right after I began studying Buddhism and doing meditation. However, there has always been a thing that stopped me: being a Buddhist monk seems an egoistic form of living, where one "leave" the society to develop one own personal practice, while keep being dependent from the help of the society.

This thing is not necessarily wrong, since a person can decide to live from the charity of others (like the Buddha did). However, from a personal point of view, I'm troubled by it.

If we want, we can rephrase this matter as related to the "right livelihood" of the eightfold path. From one side I feel that, to me, I might reach the right livelihood by becoming a monk and totally commit to the monastic life, on the other side I feel the that pursuing my own interest on the expenses of others cannot be a right livelihood.

Thanks for reading and for any eventual comment. :)
Being brief - becoming a monk would be a form of right livelihood.

This is true even if you became a monk for entirely selfish reasons as long as you attempted to live by the Vinaya.

However it is virtually impossible to become a monk in any tradition out of purely selfish motivation esp. nowadays

A monk/nun is interconnected to society even in the west (however there have been many negative opinions about this and much criticism). Taking monk vows at any level generates a great deal of merit. And if you live in a society in which you can "live from the charity of others" (something generally not possible in the west) then you are creating merit for anyone who even thinks about supporting you or helping you in any way.

Kirt
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Save up a bunch of money and then become a monk abd use that money for your expenses afterwards.
It ought to last a long time!!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SaaZ wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pmIf we want, we can rephrase this matter as related to the "right livelihood" of the eightfold path. From one side I feel that, to me, I might reach the right livelihood by becoming a monk and totally commit to the monastic life, on the other side I feel the that pursuing my own interest on the expenses of others cannot be a right livelihood.
Important to remember here is that right livelihood, the eightfold path, or even the monastic vows, are not goals in themselves. They are the means to reaching the goal, of awakening.
At the same time, there are many examples of “householders” who also attained realization. You can immediately put the Dharma teachings into practice at any given moment. You don’t need to be a monk to do that.
But if you feel that being a monk might be right for you, you shouldn’t regard this as being a freeloader.
Firstly, if you become part of any existing monastic sangha, you will find that there’s a lot of work involved, and time is precious. What hours you can devote to study and meditation, think of it like going to medical school, or maybe worse ...culinary school. There’s no goofing off (not that there’s no time for recreation. But in terms of practice, there’s no dinking around).

Secondly, if your idea is to somehow lead a monk’s life out your own, your merit and karma will have a lot to do with how well you can manage to do that.
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by seeker242 »

It would be a right livelihood yes because any livelihood that is not a wrong livelihood is a right livelihood. Right livelihood = not wrong livelihood.
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SaaZ wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pm Hello everyone,

I would like to hear your thought about a thing that keeps bothering me after many years. I have been thinking of following a monastic life for many years, almost right after I began studying Buddhism and doing meditation. However, there has always been a thing that stopped me: being a Buddhist monk seems an egoistic form of living, where one "leave" the society to develop one own personal practice, while keep being dependent from the help of the society.

This thing is not necessarily wrong, since a person can decide to live from the charity of others (like the Buddha did). However, from a personal point of view, I'm troubled by it.

If we want, we can rephrase this matter as related to the "right livelihood" of the eightfold path. From one side I feel that, to me, I might reach the right livelihood by becoming a monk and totally commit to the monastic life, on the other side I feel the that pursuing my own interest on the expenses of others cannot be a right livelihood.

Thanks for reading and for any eventual comment. :)
it's not "at the expense of others". Monastics who are truly living that life are repaying you by teaching you the most valuable thing there is - Dharma. Similarly, someone who is truly living this life - especially in the Mahayana, is precisely doing it for the benefit of others.

We can argue about authentic an inauthentic ways of doing it, but this is how it works in theory.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Brunelleschi
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Brunelleschi »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:15 amit's not "at the expense of others". Monastics who are truly living that life are repaying you by teaching you the most valuable thing there is - Dharma. Similarly, someone who is truly living this life - especially in the Mahayana, is precisely doing it for the benefit of others.

We can argue about authentic an inauthentic ways of doing it, but this is how it works in theory.
Agree 100%, and this is the reasoning behind it and why I suggested revisiting various topics in my previous post - to see why it makes sense.
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Malcolm »

SaaZ wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pm where one "leave" the society to develop one own personal practice, while keep being dependent from the help of the society.
That's not why one becomes a monastic. One becomes a Buddhist monastic because one has genuine renunciation.

Further, by living on dana you allow other people to generate merit.
SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

Thank you for the answers.

So, extrapolating from your answers, one of the main reason why monastic life is a right livelihood, is because it would create merit for all beings. This reasoning is not new to me, but I'm personally skeptical of the fact that me sitting in a cushion and doing some samu would generate something for others. Moreover, sticking with the Theravada e Zen tradition, it seems to me that the emphasis is put on free one self rather than generate merit for others. Bottom line, I personally not find it a good argument.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:15 am it's not "at the expense of others". Monastics who are truly living that life are repaying you by teaching you the most valuable thing there is - Dharma.
I honestly would be personally more comfortable with it, if I consider my self as a teacher of the Dharma, like Johnny Dangerous suggest, although I cannot really picture myself teaching it because I'm not really sure I understood it, moreover, to me the Dharma is basically expressed by the meditation itself, without much reasoning on top...
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:01 am Important to remember here is that right livelihood, the eightfold path, or even the monastic vows, are not goals in themselves. They are the means to reaching the goal, of awakening.
At the same time, there are many examples of “householders” who also attained realization. You can immediately put the Dharma teachings into practice at any given moment. You don’t need to be a monk to do that.
But if you feel that being a monk might be right for you, you shouldn’t regard this as being a freeloader.
Firstly, if you become part of any existing monastic sangha, you will find that there’s a lot of work involved, and time is precious. What hours you can devote to study and meditation, think of it like going to medical school, or maybe worse ...culinary school. There’s no goofing off (not that there’s no time for recreation. But in terms of practice, there’s no dinking around).

Secondly, if your idea is to somehow lead a monk’s life out your own, your merit and karma will have a lot to do with how well you can manage to do that.
I agree with you. I always thought that Dharma can be put into practice without further ado and that is why I spent the last 10 years trying to practise while living a lay life. I also agree that my merit and karma has to do with how I'm managing my practice. My doubt, however, is that monastic life is needed to practice more seriously. This would be coherent with how much is generally stressed the importance of the sangha.

I personally feel out of place in my current living and it has been like that for the last ten years. I always kept practising by myself, during sitting meditation, but also in the everyday life, while trying to fit at the university, at work, with friends, but I'm maybe missing a group of people that share my values, that practice enlightenment as a lifestyle.

Thanks for reading, I appreciate it.

SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SaaZ wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pm Hello everyone,

I would like to hear your thought about a thing that keeps bothering me after many years. I have been thinking of following a monastic life for many years, almost right after I began studying Buddhism and doing meditation. However, there has always been a thing that stopped me: being a Buddhist monk seems an egoistic form of living, where one "leave" the society to develop one own personal practice, while keep being dependent from the help of the society.

This thing is not necessarily wrong, since a person can decide to live from the charity of others (like the Buddha did). However, from a personal point of view, I'm troubled by it.

If we want, we can rephrase this matter as related to the "right livelihood" of the eightfold path. From one side I feel that, to me, I might reach the right livelihood by becoming a monk and totally commit to the monastic life, on the other side I feel the that pursuing my own interest on the expenses of others cannot be a right livelihood.

Thanks for reading and for any eventual comment. :)
I don’t know if you already follow a specific tradition, but there are two things you can consider:
1. Talk to a lama about doing a retreat. Usually it’s 3 years, with guidance and specific practices. There will also be prep work, and probably a bit of an investment, money-wise.
2. Contact a Thai or Lao Buddhist temple, and ask about being ordained as a monk for a short time (you can literally be a monk for a weekend at some Thai temples).
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Malcolm »

SaaZ wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:58 pm
Moreover, sticking with the Theravada e Zen tradition, it seems to me that the emphasis is put on free one self rather than generate merit for others. Bottom line, I personally not find it a good argument.
It is the support lay people offer those who have renounced lay life and taken up robes that generates merit, not your meditation. Their generosity generates merit for them. You don't generate it for them. You understand? It does not really matter whether you find it a "good argument." This is what the Buddha taught. You can accept it or reject it, but you have to understand why he taught what he taught and to whom he taught it.
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

So, extrapolating from your answers, one of the main reason why monastic life is a right livelihood, is because it would create merit for all beings. This reasoning is not new to me, but I'm personally skeptical of the fact that me sitting in a cushion and doing some samu would generate something for others.
While it is not the only path, being a reclusive meditator is a -very- valid path, and generates much merit in nearly every Buddhist tradition. I mean, it is pretty much the foundation of the Buddha's teaching. Developing renunciation is hugely important in Buddhism, it need not be external renunciation, but it is a must. It sounds like you are still unsure whether leaving Samsara is even worthwhile.

You can do as many "good works" for others as you want, in Buddhist terms without Wisdom behind them they do not amount to the same thing. Worldly good works and good works connected to the Dharma are not the same, this is spelled out pretty much verbatim in Pali literature. "Mundane" vs. "Supermundane" and "conjoined to the path", if I recall the wording.

If you are skeptical of this, you should try to understand why and discuss your findings with a teacher, as well as reading relevant Sutra, Sutta and commentary here. Even the Dhammapada has a discussion of how things change when people purify their minds. Not understanding retreat and meditation itself as a hugely meritorious activity is a limited view, akin to a secular perspective on it, as opposed to a Buddhist one.

Now, from a worldly perspective where only this life and it's empirical connections exist, meditation is just a nice thing to do to make you feel better. If you subscribe to this view, I can see why meditation seems like it's no more important than anything else, and perhaps less important than doing "good works" or something. However, you cannot approach the Buddhist path in this way and have it make any sense at all. So, I think we have found your issue.

If you have no confidence in the importance of meditation or renunciation, what interests you in ordination in the first place? Not asking that to be mean, but it is worth thinking about this. This is a First Noble Truth thing. If you aren't convinced of that yet, or maybe you think you can alleviate Dukkha simply by feeding the homeless (being facetious here, but the point stands), then you are missing a primary message of the Buddha's teachings, which is that the development of insight is part of moving towards the end of suffering, a type of insight which you cannot develop outside of meditation.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:29 am I don’t know if you already follow a specific tradition, but there are two things you can consider:
1. Talk to a lama about doing a retreat. Usually it’s 3 years, with guidance and specific practices. There will also be prep work, and probably a bit of an investment, money-wise.
2. Contact a Thai or Lao Buddhist temple, and ask about being ordained as a monk for a short time (you can literally be a monk for a weekend at some Thai temples).
I'm more into Soto Zen and also feel close to Theravada. I already did a weekend in a sort of Soto Zen monastery, although the Soto Zen tradition is not really diffuse in my Country. For the moment I'll keep trying to find a balance with my new job and city and start to join a Zen group in the city. Then I'll reconsider the matter in a few months.
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:34 am It is the support lay people offer those who have renounced lay life and taken up robes that generates merit, not your meditation. Their generosity generates merit for them. You don't generate it for them. You understand? It does not really matter whether you find it a "good argument." This is what the Buddha taught. You can accept it or reject it, but you have to understand why he taught what he taught and to whom he taught it.
I can believe that generosity could be a form of practising non-attachment, thus generating merits. However, is not that people need me to become a monk to start being generous; they could still do that giving money to charity for homeless or whatever. I'm familiar with the teaching of Buddha, even if at the moment I might be a bit rusty, but I don't take all of them as dogmas and follow them blindly. His teachings are adapted for society 2500 years old, moreover, all the records have been dated after his death and reframed based of the culture upon Buddhism spread (China, Japan, Tibet, USA ...). What I'm doing here is questioning the monastic life in a 2020 society.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:02 am While it is not the only path, being a reclusive meditator is a -very- valid path, and generates much merit in nearly every Buddhist tradition. I mean, it is pretty much the foundation of the Buddha's teaching. Developing renunciation is hugely important in Buddhism, it need not be external renunciation, but it is a must. It sounds like you are still unsure whether leaving Samsara is even worthwhile.

You can do as many "good works" for others as you want, in Buddhist terms without Wisdom behind them they do not amount to the same thing. Worldly good works and good works connected to the Dharma are not the same, this is spelled out pretty much verbatim in Pali literature. "Mundane" vs. "Supermundane" and "conjoined to the path", if I recall the wording.

If you are skeptical of this, you should try to understand why and discuss your findings with a teacher, as well as reading relevant Sutra, Sutta and commentary here. Even the Dhammapada has a discussion of how things change when people purify their minds. Not understanding retreat and meditation itself as a hugely meritorious activity is a limited view, akin to a secular perspective on it, as opposed to a Buddhist one.

Now, from a worldly perspective where only this life and it's empirical connections exist, meditation is just a nice thing to do to make you feel better. If you subscribe to this view, I can see why meditation seems like it's no more important than anything else, and perhaps less important than doing "good works" or something. However, you cannot approach the Buddhist path in this way and have it make any sense at all. So, I think we have found your issue.

If you have no confidence in the importance of meditation or renunciation, what interests you in ordination in the first place? Not asking that to be mean, but it is worth thinking about this. This is a First Noble Truth thing. If you aren't convinced of that yet, or maybe you think you can alleviate Dukkha simply by feeding the homeless (being facetious here, but the point stands), then you are missing a primary message of the Buddha's teachings, which is that the development of insight is part of moving towards the end of suffering, a type of insight which you cannot develop outside of meditation.
I do have confidence in the importance of meditation and renunciation, however, I'm keen to believe that the Buddhist teachings need to be individually practised so that merits and demerits are a consequence of individual behaviour; this is also stated in several sutras, like Dhammapada. Then, being a monk would primarily be to develop one own practice, be in a community that foster the right behaviours and so on. However, these monks would still need the services of modern society, like healthcare, electricity, internet, etc. So, here I find a discrepancy. It's sort of leaving the mundane world to practice meditation and renunciation, while still in need of the mundane world itself. Again, if we consider that a monk is actually spreading the Dharma and consider charity as a sort of payment for it, then there wouldn't be a discrepancy, but for me being a monk would primarily be to practice meditation and renunciation and only indirectly to teach it. So, I guess I'm trying to find a secular view of Buddhism that merge the need to contribute to society together with the possibility of leaving it to be a monk.

PS: I often kind of play the devil's advocate just to test some ideas and see where it goes. I'm often keen to believe much of the things that you said...
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Bristollad »

I don't know if you know of Ven. Thubten Chodron and Sravasti Abbey. They normally run a course called Exploring Monastic Life in August each year (obviously 2020 was online-only due to Covid-19):

"Exploring Monastic Life (EML) is an intensive training program, held in August every year. It’s for people thinking about becoming a Buddhist monk or nun, and for newly ordained monastics. There’s no other program like it.
The program usually lasts three weeks and entails living and practicing in monastic community.
Venerable Thubten Chodron teaches from over 40 years of living as a Buddhist nun. You learn how and why the Buddha started the ordained sangha—the community of monks and nuns—and the ethical and behavioral guidelines for monastics.
The Abbey monastics join in your daily discussions about family, career, romance, and “stuff,” to explore the issues that you need to think about."


You can see videos of teachings from the 2019 course here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5hA2Ap ... eQz1dQrrbA
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

For some reason, I am reminded here of the person who wants to be a mountain climber, who keeps buying books about how to climb mountains, until their backpack has 100 pounds of mountain climbing books in it.

If you wanted to go off to medical school and devote all of your time to studying and practicing medicine, would you have the same concerns that you have now about being a burden on society?

If you answer “no” because as a doctor you will eventually give back to society, but as a monk you won’t, then you don’t understand the motivation for dharma practice in the Mahayana context.

If you answer, “yes” then you must think it to be a waste of time.
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Malcolm »

SaaZ wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:14 am I can believe that generosity could be a form of practising non-attachment, thus generating merits. However, is not that people need me to become a monk to start being generous;
The merit generated by making offerings to the Three Jewels surpasses that of generosity to mundane objects. As a monastic, one represents the Sangha jewel.

This is the reason the Buddha encouraged generosity on the part of the lay population. It’s your vows that make you a special object for merit generation.
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

This is a very inspiring book for me about westerners becoming ordained sangha. Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe's "Advice for Monks and Nuns"

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/advice.pdf
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Bristollad wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:21 pm I don't know if you know of Ven. Thubten Chodron and Sravasti Abbey. They normally run a course called Exploring Monastic Life in August each year.
I think Thich Nhat Hanh's monastery Deer Park does something similar.
SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

Thanks, SilenceMonkey and Bristollad for the info, I'll check them out!
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:54 pm For some reason, I am reminded here of the person who wants to be a mountain climber, who keeps buying books about how to climb mountains, until their backpack has 100 pounds of mountain climbing books in it.

If you wanted to go off to medical school and devote all of your time to studying and practicing medicine, would you have the same concerns that you have now about being a burden on society?

If you answer “no” because as a doctor you will eventually give back to society, but as a monk you won’t, then you don’t understand the motivation for dharma practice in the Mahayana context.

If you answer, “yes” then you must think it to be a waste of time.
The answer would be a "no". However, I think the reason is more because I don't believe in the Mahayana motivation, rather than not understanding it (although this is also very possible :lol: ). I'm keen to believe that the Buddhist path is something that each person need to travel by oneself, basically contemplating the four noble truth, conditioned co-production, anatman, anicca and with meditation. Moreover, I have an agnostic mindset, so I tend to interpret Buddhism in a secular way, cherrypicking what suits best my values and reasoning. In this sense, I feel closer to the Soto Zen school and Theravada. Theravada is a Hinayana school, where I believe that the emphasis is put in oneself practice (of course also teaching to others; I personally love to help friends that are interested in Buddhism and meditation). Zen is Mahayana, but, to my understanding, it took a distance to most of the theoretical teachings and made ZaZen the hearth of the doctrine.
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:55 pm The merit generated by making offerings to the Three Jewels surpasses that of generosity to mundane objects. As a monastic, one represents the Sangha jewel.
This is the reason the Buddha encouraged generosity on the part of the lay population. It’s your vows that make you a special object for merit generation.
For the same reasons that I underlined above (agnostic, etc.), I'm skeptical of this interpretation. I don't see why making offers to the Shanga is greater than making offers to undernourished children. I find it difficult to believe that my personal vows, done in the silence of my head (this is figurative speech, is actually noisy there :lol: ), suddenly generate merits for other people.
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