Is monastic life a right livelihood?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:10 am I don't see why making offers to the Shanga is greater than making offers to undernourished children.
... but did you ever bother to ask why?
EMPTIFUL.
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Malcolm
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Malcolm »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:10 am
For the same reasons that I underlined above (agnostic, etc.), I'm skeptical of this interpretation. I don't see why making offers to the Shanga is greater than making offers to undernourished children. I find it difficult to believe that my personal vows, done in the silence of my head (this is figurative speech, is actually noisy there :lol: ), suddenly generate merits for other people.
First, one does not make these vows silently, in one’s head. There is no self-ordination in Buddhadharma, not even to become an upasaka.

You receive vows in specific rites, which vary from order to order, while the general outline is the same.

Second, the object is free of affliction. Now, while today monastics are probably not even stream entrants, they still represent arhats. As such, they are representative of the Buddha’s Noble Sangha.

But no one would argue there was no merit to supporting undernourished children, but not as much. Why? One has no idea how that person will turn out. The Sangha jewel is only virtuous.
SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:13 pm
SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:10 am I don't see why making offers to the Shanga is greater than making offers to undernourished children.
... but did you ever bother to ask why?
Honestly, no... It kind of seems obvious, but fair enough, you made a point, I'll start browsing about it.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:41 pm First, one does not make these vows silently, in one’s head. There is no self-ordination in Buddhadharma, not even to become an upasaka.

You receive vows in specific rites, which vary from order to order, while the general outline is the same.

Second, the object is free of affliction. Now, while today monastics are probably not even stream entrants, they still represent arhats. As such, they are representative of the Buddha’s Noble Sangha.

But no one would argue there was no merit to supporting undernourished children, but not as much. Why? One has no idea how that person will turn out. The Sangha jewel is only virtuous.
In ones head or formally made doesn't make much difference to me.
About the second point, with all due respect, It seems to me a bit naive to believe that the Sangha can only be virtuous; there are plenty of examples of non-virtuous behaviours.
Malcolm
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Malcolm »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:00 pm
In ones head or formally made doesn't make much difference to me.
About the second point, with all due respect, It seems to me a bit naive to believe that the Sangha can only be virtuous; there are plenty of examples of non-virtuous behaviours.
As for the first point: you don't really seem to understand the perspective of vows in Buddhism. A vow you make up yourself is not actually considered right discipline. It is a discipline, sure, but it is not connected with the eight fold path of noble ones.

As for the second point, I addressed that. When you make offerings to a monastic, you are not really making offerings to a person; you are making offerings to an ideal—that people can awaken through the practice of discipline, samadhi, and wisdom.

The Sangha represents that ideal.

I suspect you have not studied these issues carefully, based on your answers. Clearly, at this point in your life, becoming Buddhist monk, a member of the ordained Sangha, is not for you.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:00 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:13 pm
SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:10 am I don't see why making offers to the Shanga is greater than making offers to undernourished children.
... but did you ever bother to ask why?
Honestly, no... It kind of seems obvious, but fair enough, you made a point, I'll start browsing about it.
There are some sutras that delve into this and even refer specifically to the benefits of helping others.
Generally speaking, because all phenomena arise conditionally and are therefore temporary, they are limited. Thus, the benefit to them and the merit towards oneself, from practicing generosity toward those objects is also limited. It doesn’t mean helping those in need isn’t virtuous. It simply means it limited, both in terms of immediate effect, and long term repercussions.
Since the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha are in their very principle infinite, the benefit and merit in practicing generosity toward the “three jewels” is also potentially limitless.

Since you are into zen, then perhaps you know the story of the pupil who goes to see a master for the first time, and goes on and on about his understanding of dharma.
The master invites the pupil to have tea, and upon serving it, continues to pour until the cup is way beyond overflowing.
The student jumps up and asks the teacher if he can’t see that the cup is already full, and the teacher replies by asking the student how he can hope to learn anything if his “cup” is already full.

I’m not suggesting that I or anyone else here is a master.
But (speaking from my own experience) it might help you a little bit on your journey to ask a lot about things you assume you may know. There is a great deal more to understanding the teachings than appears on the surface.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:10 pm As for the first point: you don't really seem to understand the perspective of vows in Buddhism. A vow you make up yourself is not actually considered right discipline. It is a discipline, sure, but it is not connected with the eight fold path of noble ones.

As for the second point, I addressed that. When you make offerings to a monastic, you are not really making offerings to a person; you are making offerings to an ideal—that people can awaken through the practice of discipline, samadhi, and wisdom.

The Sangha represents that ideal.

I suspect you have not studied these issues carefully, based on your answers. Clearly, at this point in your life, becoming Buddhist monk, a member of the ordained Sangha, is not for you.
I personally struggle with the above concepts.
About the first point, for instance, who decide that a vow made by myself is not right discipline? Different Buddhist traditions have different vows, so who decide which is right?
About the second point. Is it really like that? Offering to the ideal of Sangha really generate greater merits than other kinds of offerings? How can you be so sure?

You might be right, I probably didn’t study this things enough, but as I already said, I don’t indiscriminately accept all the things that are supposed to be Buddhism as true.
Malcolm
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by Malcolm »

SaaZ wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:11 pm
About the first point, for instance, who decide that a vow made by myself is not right discipline? Different Buddhist traditions have different vows, so who decide which is right?
Right discipline has been presented by the Buddha in many sources, both the Pali Canon and Mahāyāna. In general, a vow is something one receives from a preceptor. There is a broad consensus across Buddhist traditions that taking such a vows from a preceptor renders the virtue generated by that vow a much more powerful karma. The basic reason for this is that you are entering into a community of practitioners. Just as a man who watches a hundred people kill another man and approves of it receives one hundred times more negative karma than if he just killed a man himself, likewise, someone who takes Buddhist precepts generates as much merit from that as there are people who have also take those precepts.

Self-made vows do not have that force because there is no community to support them.

About the second point. Is it really like that? Offering to the ideal of Sangha really generate greater merits than other kinds of offerings? How can you be so sure?
Again, this is another one of the thing about which there is broad consensus across Buddhist traditions.
You might be right, I probably didn’t study this things enough, but as I already said, I don’t indiscriminately accept all the things that are supposed to be Buddhism as true.
It is also important not to indiscriminately reject things, just because they challenge your preconceptions about Buddhism.
SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

Malcom, PadmaVonSamba, thanks for your comments. I got your points, I’ll think about them.
rahulkapoor
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by rahulkapoor »

Buddhism is divide into two forms Hinyana and mahana as much i had researched about buddhism living salvation life is integral part ..for those who really beileve from deep of their heart. monastic life can be right livelihood . if someone truly wants understand real meaning of salvation.
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SaaZ
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Re: Is monastic life a right livelihood?

Post by SaaZ »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:29 am This is a very inspiring book for me about westerners becoming ordained sangha. Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe's "Advice for Monks and Nuns"

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/advice.pdf
I finally read the book. Indeed very inspiring!!! it pointed to many issues that I had about monasticism in western countries. Thanks!
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