Awakening is a collective venture

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rick
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Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Rick »

Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:

"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."

I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
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Malcolm
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Malcolm »

rachmiel wrote:Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:

"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."

I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.

Buddhadharma without rebirth makes no sense, likewise, there awakening is not a collective venture.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Lazy_eye »

Malcolm wrote: Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.
Since this is a recurring area of confusion, perhaps you would be willing to take a moment and explain the difference between a "self" and an "individual mindstream"? What is the the answer to the charge that "individual mindstream" is just a semantic ploy intended to allow a self-concept back into the Dharma?

One could argue also that the distinction being made is between two different kinds of self-concept -- a static one (maybe a pre-Buddhist "atman"), and a dynamic one that allows for change and impermanence. But as long as it's an "individual" mindstream, there is still this troublesome attribute of "individuality," which sounds like a synonym for selfhood.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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rachmiel wrote:Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:

"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."

I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
Yes and no, maybe in the sense that Bodhicitta embraces and wishes the highest good for all....however:

By oneself is evil done,
by oneself defiled,
by oneself it’s left undone,
by self alone one purified.
Purity, impurity on oneself depend,
no one can purify another.

On Sangha (which seems to be what he means by "collective" in the article), I always liked the way Trungpa put it..it's like a group of people walking together, and you have all agreed to help prop each other up. If you stand too close you run the risk that people become dependent on others carrying them along, and when one falls, it's like a bunch of dominoes. So instead of agreeing to carry one another, you agree to keep each other standing, and help each other move forward.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Rick »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote:The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
Yes and no, ...
Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
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Malcolm
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Malcolm »

Lazy_eye wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.
Since this is a recurring area of confusion, perhaps you would be willing to take a moment and explain the difference between a "self" and an "individual mindstream"? What is the the answer to the charge that "individual mindstream" is just a semantic ploy intended to allow a self-concept back into the Dharma?

One could argue also that the distinction being made is between two different kinds of self-concept -- a static one (maybe a pre-Buddhist "atman"), and a dynamic one that allows for change and impermanence. But as long as it's an "individual" mindstream, there is still this troublesome attribute of "individuality," which sounds like a synonym for selfhood.

Mindstreams are individuated and unique— they have to to be, otherwise my karma could ripen on you and vice versa.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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rachmiel wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote:The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
Yes and no, ...
Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.

It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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What is the the answer to the charge that "individual mindstream" is just a semantic ploy intended to allow a self-concept back into the Dharma?
For the life of me, I don't understand how this question trips people up the way it does.

Can you watch a movie and understand it's being performed by actors, and that the narrative is not real? If so, this concept is not so difficult, certainly there is an ex[experience of a conventional self.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Yes and no, ...
Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.
Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Vasana »

rachmiel wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote: Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.
Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.

'[...]For one with compassion, there are no sentient beings' -Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

:stirthepot:
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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I think we're running head-on into one of the imo most common sources of confusion and misunderstanding in Buddhist dialogues:

Mixing conventional and ultimate views.

Conventionally, X Y and Z might be true, whereas at the ultimatel level, there is no X Y or Z. That kinda thing. Yes? No? Both? Neither? :thumbsup:
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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rachmiel wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote: Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.
Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.
Yeah, but genuine Bodhicitta is different from wanting to make others be a certain way, or having a goal in mind for them. That's why I mentioned Trungpa's take...samsara is already utterly full of people who want to make plans for others. So "yes and no" is the correct answer AFAIC, collective in the sense of aspiration, but with the understanding that it is so easy to make Sangha into a samsaric venture - something i'm sure many people are already familiar with.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by amanitamusc »

rachmiel wrote:I think we're running head-on into one of the imo most common sources of confusion and misunderstanding in Buddhist dialogues:

Mixing conventional and ultimate views.

Conventionally, X Y and Z might be true, whereas at the ultimatel level, there is no X Y or Z. That kinda thing. Yes? No? Both? Neither? :thumbsup:
Maybe the confusion comes from the separation of the conventional and the ultimate?
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by muni »

rachmiel wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote: Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.
Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.
By ‘impure’ perception many practices (relative bodhichitta) can be done and no any should be underestimated, to open the illusory door of selfishness.
Bodhichitta melts the ice of confusion.
By ‘pure ‘ perception, “All sentient beings” without possible exclusion are "in the very heart" (metaphor), are “own lights” so to speak.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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rachmiel wrote:Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.
All INDIVIDUAL sentient beings. It's not like they are a single homogeneous mass. Even in a crowd with a common goal, the motivation of each individual in the crowd may vary greatly.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:yeah, but genuine Bodhicitta is different from wanting to make others be a certain way, or having a goal in mind for them. That's why I mentioned Trungpa's take...samsara is already utterly full of people who want to make plans for others. So "yes and no" is the correct answer AFAIC, collective in the sense of aspiration, but with the understanding that it is so easy to make Sangha into a samsaric venture - something i'm sure many people are already familiar with.
Definitely! Pretty much anything can be grasped at, even the "highest" ethical views and practices. So yes, it's important to remain wary of mistaking ego for bodhicitta. But framing your practice around metta/compassion/bodhicitta for the collective (i.e. the individuals who make it up, thank you Grigoris) seems like a good starting point to me. Baby steps, ya know. Fake it till you make it. Whatchas think?
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by aflatun »

Malcolm wrote:
rachmiel wrote:Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:

"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."

I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.

Buddhadharma without rebirth makes no sense, likewise, there awakening is not a collective venture.
Is Professor Garfield a practitioner? Not that it matters either way, I just imagined he wasn't. In the article I got a more 'committed' vibe than in his academic writing.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by dzogchungpa »

aflatun wrote:Is Professor Garfield a practitioner? Not that it matters either way, I just imagined he wasn't. In the article I got a more 'committed' vibe than in his academic writing.
He was asked about this here, but it seems that he did not respond.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

Post by Rick »

The idea of diving as deeply into the philosophy of Buddhism as Jay has clearly done, but not practicing it seems weird to me. It's like studying ice cream without ever actually tasting it. Then again, Buddhist philosophy is all sorts of fascinating, even on the purely intellectual level. I'm just glad there IS a Jay Garfield, because I find his writings on Buddhism to be very accessible and clear.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture

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rachmiel wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote:The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
Yes and no, ...
Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no? :tongue:

* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
Do you think that Madhyamaka is the epitome of this awakening?
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