Awakening is a collective venture
Awakening is a collective venture
Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:
"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.rachmiel wrote:Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:
"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
Buddhadharma without rebirth makes no sense, likewise, there awakening is not a collective venture.
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Since this is a recurring area of confusion, perhaps you would be willing to take a moment and explain the difference between a "self" and an "individual mindstream"? What is the the answer to the charge that "individual mindstream" is just a semantic ploy intended to allow a self-concept back into the Dharma?Malcolm wrote: Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.
One could argue also that the distinction being made is between two different kinds of self-concept -- a static one (maybe a pre-Buddhist "atman"), and a dynamic one that allows for change and impermanence. But as long as it's an "individual" mindstream, there is still this troublesome attribute of "individuality," which sounds like a synonym for selfhood.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Yes and no, maybe in the sense that Bodhicitta embraces and wishes the highest good for all....however:rachmiel wrote:Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:
"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
By oneself is evil done,
by oneself defiled,
by oneself it’s left undone,
by self alone one purified.
Purity, impurity on oneself depend,
no one can purify another.
On Sangha (which seems to be what he means by "collective" in the article), I always liked the way Trungpa put it..it's like a group of people walking together, and you have all agreed to help prop each other up. If you stand too close you run the risk that people become dependent on others carrying them along, and when one falls, it's like a bunch of dominoes. So instead of agreeing to carry one another, you agree to keep each other standing, and help each other move forward.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?Johnny Dangerous wrote:Yes and no, ...rachmiel wrote:The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Lazy_eye wrote:Since this is a recurring area of confusion, perhaps you would be willing to take a moment and explain the difference between a "self" and an "individual mindstream"? What is the the answer to the charge that "individual mindstream" is just a semantic ploy intended to allow a self-concept back into the Dharma?Malcolm wrote: Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.
One could argue also that the distinction being made is between two different kinds of self-concept -- a static one (maybe a pre-Buddhist "atman"), and a dynamic one that allows for change and impermanence. But as long as it's an "individual" mindstream, there is still this troublesome attribute of "individuality," which sounds like a synonym for selfhood.
Mindstreams are individuated and unique— they have to to be, otherwise my karma could ripen on you and vice versa.
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
rachmiel wrote:Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?Johnny Dangerous wrote:Yes and no, ...rachmiel wrote:The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
For the life of me, I don't understand how this question trips people up the way it does.What is the the answer to the charge that "individual mindstream" is just a semantic ploy intended to allow a self-concept back into the Dharma?
Can you watch a movie and understand it's being performed by actors, and that the narrative is not real? If so, this concept is not so difficult, certainly there is an ex[experience of a conventional self.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.rachmiel wrote:Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?Johnny Dangerous wrote: Yes and no, ...
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
rachmiel wrote:Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.rachmiel wrote: Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
'[...]For one with compassion, there are no sentient beings' -Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
I think we're running head-on into one of the imo most common sources of confusion and misunderstanding in Buddhist dialogues:
Mixing conventional and ultimate views.
Conventionally, X Y and Z might be true, whereas at the ultimatel level, there is no X Y or Z. That kinda thing. Yes? No? Both? Neither?
Mixing conventional and ultimate views.
Conventionally, X Y and Z might be true, whereas at the ultimatel level, there is no X Y or Z. That kinda thing. Yes? No? Both? Neither?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Yeah, but genuine Bodhicitta is different from wanting to make others be a certain way, or having a goal in mind for them. That's why I mentioned Trungpa's take...samsara is already utterly full of people who want to make plans for others. So "yes and no" is the correct answer AFAIC, collective in the sense of aspiration, but with the understanding that it is so easy to make Sangha into a samsaric venture - something i'm sure many people are already familiar with.rachmiel wrote:Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.rachmiel wrote: Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Maybe the confusion comes from the separation of the conventional and the ultimate?rachmiel wrote:I think we're running head-on into one of the imo most common sources of confusion and misunderstanding in Buddhist dialogues:
Mixing conventional and ultimate views.
Conventionally, X Y and Z might be true, whereas at the ultimatel level, there is no X Y or Z. That kinda thing. Yes? No? Both? Neither?
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
By ‘impure’ perception many practices (relative bodhichitta) can be done and no any should be underestimated, to open the illusory door of selfishness.rachmiel wrote:Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's pretty clear that we have to deal with our karma individually though, if that were not so Buddha and all the Bodhisattvas would have fixed it for us long ago.rachmiel wrote: Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.
Bodhichitta melts the ice of confusion.
By ‘pure ‘ perception, “All sentient beings” without possible exclusion are "in the very heart" (metaphor), are “own lights” so to speak.
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
All INDIVIDUAL sentient beings. It's not like they are a single homogeneous mass. Even in a crowd with a common goal, the motivation of each individual in the crowd may vary greatly.rachmiel wrote:Gotcha. But afaiu the foremost requirement of successfully navigating The Path is bodhicitta. No? And bodhicitta sets its sights on the whole, not the individual. Yes? Which is how I interpret Jay's comment, that your sights need to be set on ALL sentient beings, that's the engine of awakening.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Definitely! Pretty much anything can be grasped at, even the "highest" ethical views and practices. So yes, it's important to remain wary of mistaking ego for bodhicitta. But framing your practice around metta/compassion/bodhicitta for the collective (i.e. the individuals who make it up, thank you Grigoris) seems like a good starting point to me. Baby steps, ya know. Fake it till you make it. Whatchas think?Johnny Dangerous wrote:yeah, but genuine Bodhicitta is different from wanting to make others be a certain way, or having a goal in mind for them. That's why I mentioned Trungpa's take...samsara is already utterly full of people who want to make plans for others. So "yes and no" is the correct answer AFAIC, collective in the sense of aspiration, but with the understanding that it is so easy to make Sangha into a samsaric venture - something i'm sure many people are already familiar with.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Is Professor Garfield a practitioner? Not that it matters either way, I just imagined he wasn't. In the article I got a more 'committed' vibe than in his academic writing.Malcolm wrote:Jay is glossing over the fact that while selves may be refuted, individual mindstreams are strongly defended in Mahāyāna. So, he is just deceptively waltzing down the Secularist path, i.e., "Buddhism" without rebirth.rachmiel wrote:Jay Garfield, in What Does Buddhism Require:
"The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
I think it's really important to keep this in mind during the journey. And sometimes easy to forget ... for me at least.
Buddhadharma without rebirth makes no sense, likewise, there awakening is not a collective venture.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
He was asked about this here, but it seems that he did not respond.aflatun wrote:Is Professor Garfield a practitioner? Not that it matters either way, I just imagined he wasn't. In the article I got a more 'committed' vibe than in his academic writing.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Awakening is a collective venture
The idea of diving as deeply into the philosophy of Buddhism as Jay has clearly done, but not practicing it seems weird to me. It's like studying ice cream without ever actually tasting it. Then again, Buddhist philosophy is all sorts of fascinating, even on the purely intellectual level. I'm just glad there IS a Jay Garfield, because I find his writings on Buddhism to be very accessible and clear.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: Awakening is a collective venture
Do you think that Madhyamaka is the epitome of this awakening?rachmiel wrote:Rack 'em! Pretty much everything in Buddhism* is "yes, and no" until it's eventually just "this" (i.e. whatever it is). Yes? (And) no?Johnny Dangerous wrote:Yes and no, ...rachmiel wrote:The project of full awakening is a collective, not an individual, venture."
* Madhyamaka Buddhism, that is.