Bad karma & bad mood

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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gloriasteinem
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Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

I've noticed that poor people often have stern faces, angrily expressions, and not think good. How is that that the good conditions make people's thoughts generally better and the poor get desperate and nasty. How is it supposed that you create good karma in great suffering, isn't it that poverty is not only a vicious circle but that the poor people being poor create more and more negative karma. How is it even possible to overcome this if you know you don't have a chance in this live unlike many others. Also normal people don' t want to communicate with the poor so they have to be among their nasty caste and therefore learn bad behaviour, godlessness, angriness, even cursing, etc. If someone is good among the poor he will be alone and therefore even poorer because he will not be able to do like the rest of poor and he cannot be in the next social levels.
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BrianG
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by BrianG »

gloriasteinem wrote:I've noticed that poor people often have stern faces, angrily expressions, and not think good. How is that that the good conditions make people's thoughts generally better and the poor get desperate and nasty. How is it supposed that you create good karma in great suffering, isn't it that poverty is not only a vicious circle but that the poor people being poor create more and more negative karma.
What the Buddha discovered, is that behind every sight, behind every sound, behind every taste, behind every touch, behind every though - is pure pleasure. This pleasure is not dependent on your bank account, not dependent on your reputation, not dependent on your caste, not dependent on what you just ate, not even dependent on being alive. It is unconditioned. That is the true happiness that Buddhist's strive for.

The "happiness" that rich people enjoy is simply the suffering of change. A poor person exchanging the suffering of suffering for the suffering of change does not bring them any closer to nirvana.
How is it even possible to overcome this if you know you don't have a chance in this live unlike many others. Also normal people don' t want to communicate with the poor so they have to be among their nasty caste ... and he cannot be in the next social levels.
The Dharma isn't about caste mobility, and it never has been. Everyone has a chance.
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amanitamusc
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by amanitamusc »

gloriasteinem wrote:I've noticed that poor people often have stern faces, angrily expressions, and not think good. How is that that the good conditions make people's thoughts generally better and the poor get desperate and nasty. How is it supposed that you create good karma in great suffering, isn't it that poverty is not only a vicious circle but that the poor people being poor create more and more negative karma. How is it even possible to overcome this if you know you don't have a chance in this live unlike many others. Also normal people don' t want to communicate with the poor so they have to be among their nasty caste and therefore learn bad behaviour, godlessness, angriness, even cursing, etc. If someone is good among the poor he will be alone and therefore even poorer because he will not be able to do like the rest of poor and he cannot be in the next social levels.
Most Buddhist monks are poor.Many are happy.

They are all godless.
gloriasteinem
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

Yeah, but if you are poor you hear around you not rightful speech, how there could be joy in this, and further even if you ignore it, non rightful speech goes into your subconscious. It stays there and becomes your speedy pattern. And if you don't have right speech, you won't nave right thoughts and not mindfulness. You are aware too that monks, nuns and shamans, etc. are usually considered a separate cast too. And that even in Buddhist parables some monks are reborn in "different cast" be it poor, or military because of their deeds. Call it if you want social strata. And it's all not the same for their continual development and enlightening.
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amanitamusc
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by amanitamusc »

gloriasteinem wrote:Yeah, but if you are poor you hear around you not rightful speech, how there could be joy in this, and further even if you ignore it, non rightful speech goes into your subconscious. It stays there and becomes your speedy pattern. And if you don't have right speech, you won't nave right thoughts and not mindfulness. You are aware too that monks, nuns and shamans, etc. are usually considered a separate cast too. And that even in Buddhist parables some monks are reborn in "different cast" be it poor, or military because of their deeds. Call it if you want social strata. And it's all not the same for their continual development and enlightening.
Where are monks and nuns seen as a separate caste.
Are you talking about India ?
gloriasteinem
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

amanitamusc wrote:
gloriasteinem wrote:Yeah, but if you are poor you hear around you not rightful speech, how there could be joy in this, and further even if you ignore it, non rightful speech goes into your subconscious. It stays there and becomes your speedy pattern. And if you don't have right speech, you won't nave right thoughts and not mindfulness. You are aware too that monks, nuns and shamans, etc. are usually considered a separate cast too. And that even in Buddhist parables some monks are reborn in "different cast" be it poor, or military because of their deeds. Call it if you want social strata. And it's all not the same for their continual development and enlightening.
Where are monks and nuns seen as a separate caste.
Are you talking about India ?
Call it cast, lifestyle, social strata or even destiny in social realisation, its all the same. I'm talking about Chinese parables.
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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

isn't it that poverty is not only a vicious circle but that the poor people being poor create more and more negative karma.
Yes, a vicious circle whose nature is suffering. Sound familiar?
How is it even possible to overcome this if you know you don't have a chance in this live unlike many others.
Some people rely on self-will and can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Some people need the support of religion. I think the support of religion is the superior path of the two.
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joy&peace
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by joy&peace »

not really. suffering is easy enough to see through, if you give it your all. being sensitive to the experiences of others is rather necessary.
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boda
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by boda »

Studies have shown that levels of happiness are generally the same between rich and poor, once basic needs are met.
gloriasteinem
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

boda wrote:Studies have shown that levels of happiness are generally the same between rich and poor, once basic needs are met.
Being poor means one's basic needs are not well met.
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boda
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by boda »

Then yeah, that could put just about anyone in a bad mood.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Well perhaps normal people not think good either.

In any case we may be grateful that Gautama the Buddha favored values other than caste and Brahminism.
dreambow
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by dreambow »

Gloria, "I've noticed that poor people often have stern faces, angrily expressions, and not think good" I simply can't agree as many 'poor' people I've come across in third world countries laugh easily and have genuine smiles on their faces, more then anything I've encountered in the west and certainly amongst the cappuccino crowd. I think its a huge generalization to think that people without a certain life style derive little happiness from life. Happiness can be sought and attained by being surrounded by a close community, supportive family, the devotion in religion. Look again with fresh eyes, without distortion, you may be surprised.
gloriasteinem
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

dreambow wrote:Gloria, "I've noticed that poor people often have stern faces, angrily expressions, and not think good" I simply can't agree as many 'poor' people I've come across in third world countries laugh easily and have genuine smiles on their faces, more then anything I've encountered in the west and certainly amongst the cappuccino crowd. I think its a huge generalization to think that people without a certain life style derive little happiness from life. Happiness can be sought and attained by being surrounded by a close community, supportive family, the devotion in religion. Look again with fresh eyes, without distortion, you may be surprised.
Oh, 'happy poverty', and how does this explain cargo cults if they were happy being poor why would elaborate cults about landing strips, etc. Maybe smiles you've encountered is their showing happiness someone from the rich countries came across them? Maybe you were an interesting sensation for them that made them happy? And what do you mean by poor not having"lifestyle". do you think having medication, food, clear water, hot water are a type of "lifestyle", and not havin them is simply not having a "lifestyle", I think its more like life threatening and causing shorter life in years, they probably die at 40-50 or even younger.

I look very much with fresh eyes, religion helps but to an extend, I've seen many pictures from Tibet even and you can see the hardship in their eyes, bodies and faces, ok, in Tibet they wouldn't be mean but probably not so "spontaneously happy in poverty" as you construct it in your lifestyled mind.
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BrianG
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by BrianG »

gloriasteinem wrote: Oh, 'happy poverty', and how does this explain cargo cults if they were happy being poor why would elaborate cults about landing strips, etc. Maybe smiles you've encountered is their showing happiness someone from the rich countries came across them? Maybe you were an interesting sensation for them that made them happy? And what do you mean by poor not having"lifestyle". do you think having medication, food, clear water, hot water are a type of "lifestyle", and not havin them is simply not having a "lifestyle", I think its more like life threatening and causing shorter life in years, they probably die at 40-50 or even younger.

I look very much with fresh eyes, religion helps but to an extend, I've seen many pictures from Tibet even and you can see the hardship in their eyes, bodies and faces, ok, in Tibet they wouldn't be mean but probably not so "spontaneously happy in poverty" as you construct it in your lifestyled mind.
I live on less than 10k usd a year, I've never been happier. You are confusing the the suffering of change for happiness.
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by Ayu »

Poverty is not the same as having less money. As long as there is proper food ( including water), clothing, shelter, medical care and access to education, poverty or wealth might be an issue of the mind only - BUT there are too many people on this planet who are missing at least one of these five basic needs.
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Bristollad
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by Bristollad »

Dear Gloria,

You need to be clear what you mean by poor. Do you mean those who have less than they need or do you mean those who have less than they want. Of the two, I've met more people who are unhappy because they have less than they want (I'm not saying they are the larger of the two groups, just the one I'm familiar with). As Brian says, thinking that by having more of what you want, you will be happier is mistaking samsaric happiness (suffering of change) for happiness. I disagree with your assertion that poor people will necessarily be surrounded by negative words and actions and that richer people aren't. This is a complete fallacy as far as I'm concerned.

Brian didn't say people are happy because they are poor, he said it is possible to be happy having less than you want. Having what I need and restriciting what I want has made me a lot happier. Our wants never go away, are never satisfied, and chasing them, trying to fulfil them is a recipe for suffering. Reducing our wants to be more in line with our needs is a recipe for happiness, not just for us but also for others.
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by muni »

Somehow by the title of the tread only, I think it is possible there may be a link from bad mood to bad actions and so effects. Since when we are unhappy, it is not so easy to be able to be fully there for all in beneficial way. While being there for others, can cure our unhappiness.

Poor? There are children sleeping on not sold, rotten flowers, under a bridge since their parents could not take care for them and brought them to the city. These children are lacking education, have no medical care, no hygiene, no good food and I am not sure about the water. When you take such little one on your arm, it is like a feather with just a very dirty T-shirt on, not understanding what a hug means. And then you have those who are helping them. You have a little new born child passing its’ first night on old newspapers, lying next to its’ mom along the footpath of the street.
You have also the poor farmer with one cow, calling you and happily showing his new calf of just two hours old. You have the girl calling you inside the tent for a meal, on the menu is rice and chicken paws, their face very happy with your visit and with sharing what they have.
As well after the earthquake in Nepal, people had nothing anymore, only few banana from a small tree what was not destroyed. When helpers reached their village, they directly offered them each a banana because the travellers certainly were hungry and tired. Even having nothing themselves, caring as much as possible for their animals.
There are the so seen untouchables not being respected because of the confused dividing mind, which is itself suffering from its' poor state of mind.

Buddha saw lots of these misery, lots of suffering and that brought him to investigation.

There are the Transcendent Perfections, which are completely altruistic and with full respect by insight, helping each other. There is no thought: look what I do, to you! Or see how good I am as I help all these people. There is genuine Compassion/respect without thought about, just as for our leg, our hand, our eyes, so others are and deserve same respect. Whether high caste or no caste.

http://www.bodhicitta.net/Six%20Perfections.htm

http://www.dzogchenbuddha.org/teachings ... mitas.html

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/paramitas.htm

May I be a guard for all those who are protector-less,
A guide for those who journey on the road,
For those who wish to go across the water,
May I be a boat, a raft, a bridge.

For all those ailing in the world,
Until their every sickness has been healed,
May I myself become for them
The doctor, nurse, the medicine itself.
http://www.khandro.net/bud_bodhisattva_vow.htm

:namaste:
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
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gloriasteinem
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

Bristollad wrote:Dear Gloria,

You need to be clear what you mean by poor. Do you mean those who have less than they need or do you mean those who have less than they want. Of the two, I've met more people who are unhappy because they have less than they want (I'm not saying they are the larger of the two groups, just the one I'm familiar with). As Brian says, thinking that by having more of what you want, you will be happier is mistaking samsaric happiness (suffering of change) for happiness. I disagree with your assertion that poor people will necessarily be surrounded by negative words and actions and that richer people aren't. This is a complete fallacy as far as I'm concerned.

Brian didn't say people are happy because they are poor, he said it is possible to be happy having less than you want. Having what I need and restriciting what I want has made me a lot happier. Our wants never go away, are never satisfied, and chasing them, trying to fulfil them is a recipe for suffering. Reducing our wants to be more in line with our needs is a recipe for happiness, not just for us but also for others.
He was talking about poor people. And as far as I'm concerned less than you want is middle class or lower middle class not poor. Poor is not having enough for your basic needs.

Wikipedia: Absolute poverty, extreme poverty, or abject poverty is "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services."

Also being poor in rich country is sometimes not the same as being poor in poor country because in a rich country you will still be able to access free WiFi, quality libraries or help that the poor country cannot provide. Also to me poverty is not only the status in itself but the possibility of future positive or negative change in the status.

Also about your negation of the fact that poor are surrounded by bad words, behaviours and factors.

Usually drinking, taking drugs including heroin is characteristic for the deprived regions and societies: take ghettoes, high heroin addiction rates in Russia, the drinking beggars, etc. Excessive drinking and drug abuse ALWAYS comes with cursing, scandals, beating of wives and children, bar beatings, and after all stealing

and killing among drug addicts and dealers. And also any kind of obscene behaviour, nastiness, criminality, lack of religiousness, etc. Also as I said it is important if the poor person is alone being poor in a wealthier region or in a deprived neighbourhood or country.
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gloriasteinem
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Re: Bad karma & bad mood

Post by gloriasteinem »

muni wrote: May I be a guard for all those who are protector-less,
A guide for those who journey on the road,
For those who wish to go across the water,
May I be a boat, a raft, a bridge.

For all those ailing in the world,
Until their every sickness has been healed,
May I myself become for them
The doctor, nurse, the medicine itself.
http://www.khandro.net/bud_bodhisattva_vow.htm

:namaste:
I'll learn this by heart
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