Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by lostitude »

Hello,

I see many threads here that discuss highly theoretical concepts the way they would typically debated in philosophy, for example, using reason.
It may be a misconception, but based on my little knowledge of Zen, I understood that the goal in buddhism was to understand 'things' through direct intuition via the process of meditation, rather than through logic.
Likewise I heard this story of the very knowledgeable philospher who goes to a Zen master and asks him how to attain nirvana (if my memory serves me right) and the Zen master pours him tea into an already filled cup, and explains that his mind is like this filled cup of tea, it should first be emptied of all that knowledge and prejudice before it can be filled again. Or something alone those lines.
So I was wondering how to interpret this story?
Is it maybe that Zen promotes direct intuition while other schools are ok with using common reason and logic to figure out things about reality? or something else?

Thanks
daelm
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by daelm »

lostitude wrote:Hello,

I see many threads here that discuss highly theoretical concepts the way they would typically debated in philosophy, for example, using reason.
It may be a misconception, but based on my little knowledge of Zen, I understood that the goal in buddhism was to understand 'things' through direct intuition via the process of meditation, rather than through logic.
Likewise I heard this story of the very knowledgeable philospher who goes to a Zen master and asks him how to attain nirvana (if my memory serves me right) and the Zen master pours him tea into an already filled cup, and explains that his mind is like this filled cup of tea, it should first be emptied of all that knowledge and prejudice before it can be filled again. Or something alone those lines.
So I was wondering how to interpret this story?
Is it maybe that Zen promotes direct intuition while other schools are ok with using common reason and logic to figure out things about reality? or something else?

Thanks
Buddhism traditionally requires insight gathered through both meditation and study. without the former, you just know the names of things. without the latter, you have no real idea what your insight means or what to do with it.

dharma is ultimately experiential, and not amenable to language (because language deals in concepts derived from samasara, and which therefore rely for their meaning on the implied ignorance of the reality of things.) what the Buddha taught is that the reality of things is accessible as part of existence. however, what you do with that experience may vary, depending on what you believe about it after the fact, and so i also support the injunction to study - i just believe that the purpose of study is prophylactic and protective, not illuminating. the purpose of study, it seems to me, is to protect you from error in interpretation of your experiences, and ultimately to free you from interpretation of your experiences
Last edited by daelm on Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
daelm
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by daelm »

lostitude wrote: Is it maybe that Zen promotes direct intuition while other schools are ok with using common reason and logic to figure out things about reality? or something else?

Thanks
also, for all Zen's stated claim to being "a special transmission outside the sutras", it has amassed i think the largest literature of any sutra school. so, that happens. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_S ... ure_in_Zen

i think, no matter what is claimed, we work with human faculties.
User avatar
BrianG
Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by BrianG »

lostitude wrote:Hello,
her schools are ok with using common reason and logic to figure out things about reality? or something else?
Thanks
A general pattern in Buddhism is to split meditation into two types - Shamatha and Vipassana. Shamatha would be focusing on an object of meditation, and Vipassana is analysis of an object of meditation/liberating insight.

So in Theravada you'd have Shamatha and Vipassana, Zen you'd have Zazen and Koans, Secret Mantra you'd have Generation and Completion stages.
Telepaths - I like to kill them
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

View and meditation are both necessary. You don't need to be a scholar, but view is important in any form of Buddhism, AFAIK.

The only Zen that fully eschews Buddhist view are modernist incarnations, it is a form of Mahayana Buddhism, albeit one that was very much focused on practice and a "back to basics" approach. Read Bodhidharma sometime, he may be iconoclastic, but there is a method.

Learning Buddhist views doesn't need to make you stodgy or hyper-focused on minutiae, in fact learning them goes hand in hand with the meditation bit.

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_(Buddhism)

I don't really know of many extant forms of Buddhism that rely on "thinking" for liberation exactly, Lojong teachings and other Indian Mahayana teachings involve transformation of thought, but that is not really the same thing as trying to become liberated through thinking alone, it is again about changing one's view, which is a bit more nuanced than "thinking".
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by joy&peace »

Hey again,

There are quite a few central things about the spiritual path; I mean paradoxes or central issues that come up time and again. .
This is one of them for sure - another is discernment - Discriminating Wisdom - and that one is like a paradox, in a sense. . .
A good Zen teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, expressed simply - attachment to views is the greatest impediment on the path.
I often return to simplicity at times, like for instance HHDL saying, 'To cultivate a good heart - that is enough.'

On to the question: I would say it is about a; practicing right speech, only saying what is helpful, true and good,
anytime we are talking, we are telling a story, so to speak. . .
so anyway - letting go of all thoughts, this is very central;

Yet it's been taken up by a lot of people as the sole path,

and so that's the basic crux of it to me - I have noticed, people who focus solely on the cessation of thoughts sometimes forget that line from the Dhammapada: 'If one speaks and acts from a pure heart, happiness will follow like a shadow that never leaves.'

I hope this was helpful.

Sincerely,
Jake
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Thich Nhat Hanh, expressed simply - attachment to views is the greatest impediment on the path.
I often return to simplicity at times, like for instance HHDL saying, 'To cultivate a good heart - that is enough.'
My two cents:

Those are upaya ..not specific advice for the Buddhist path. TNH and HHDL have written many books on the "philosophical" side of Buddhism - i.e.the Buddhist View. If one just wishes to make use of Buddhist teachings without things like taking refuge, sutra study etc. ( things that are part of all extant forms of Buddhism in other words) that's cool, it is a great thing to do, but it is simply skillful use of meditation, and leaving out a big part of Buddhist practice - study, and perhaps even devotion. You cannot really "try" to let go of fixed views, letting go of fixed views supposed to be a result of practice, not a statement of ideology.

I think The idea that Buddhism is this "non-view" with no philosophical underpinnings is more of a modern thing to make meditation available to all, and to be conciliatory in a time that could use more such attitudes from religious leaders, not a description of how people interested in the path should study, necessarily. Of course all views must be let go of, but treating no view as a kind fixed of view is, ironically, something of a common theme in Western Buddhism, it's a very protestant position to take in some ways. It is possible to hold dogmatically to ANY position, including iconoclasm and lack of view. Study in Buddhism does not mean simply reading and regurgitating views, but absorbing what you've read, considering and testing it against your own experience until it has ceased being just "thinking" about concepts and you have realized it is true, and your view has been transformed.

So, if the OP is looking for which schools contain the least amount of theory side by side with practice, then yes there are some that focus more on experiential learning and meditative experience more than others, but view is important to all traditions as a whole. Now, what use you make of them, and what you like and are drawn to (including simply practicing meditation instead of studying) is a totally different question, and one with different answers for each person.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Jinzang
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 am

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Jinzang »

Here's an analogy:

Someone asks you to pick up a friend at the airport and gives you a description of what they look like. Without the description, you would have no idea who to pick up. But no description, no matter how good, will have the clarity and vividness of seeing the person.

In the same way, through study we receive a general idea of the three marks of existence. But through meditation we come to see them with vivid clarity.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Urgyen Dorje
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

In the pramana teachings on valid cognition, it is outlined that there are different types of cognition which are "valid" because they correctly recognize their objects. If one sees a four legged quadruped furry creature that laps milk and pees in a box of clay, and thinks it's a rabbit, then that is a mistaken cognition. We mistook the object. In the context of dharma, it is said that we suffering in samsara primarily because of ignorance, so we're generally mistaken cognizers when it comes to reality. We mistake the causes of happiness-- we thiink it's self involvement. We mistake the nature of our selves and the phenomena around us-- we think they're real. We mistake the nature of our minds-- we think our thoughts are real.

Generally we start just being told. Somebody points and says "cat" or "rabbit". We are having the truth pointed out to us by somebody who knows, but we don't necessarily understand it. It's the same with the dharma. We start with scriptural references and citations, basic dharma teachings, and we start to piece together the basis of a Buddhist world view. Killing is bad. We dont' know why. We just know it's bad. There is no self. We don't know why. We just know there isn't. Simply because the Buddha said.

It might be that we see this furry beast, and based on some teachings on furry quadrupeds, we reason out that it's a cat. It's not a rabbit because of the ears. It's not an aardvark because of the snout. It has no hooves. So it's a cat. That's an inferential cognizer. In the context of the dharma, this is considered a good step, because we can start making good choices and start picking away at our confusion with this level of intellectual inquiry. We can start looking at our actions, and even though we can't "see" karma directly, we can start to infer that we're acting improperly. We can also start reasoning about the nature of things-- so where is this "self" that I'm attached to? Is it my arms, my legs, my mind-- where is it?

When we start reasoning our way through whether this furry beast is a cat or a rabbit or a pig, we do so with conceptual mind, so we do it mediated by images and generalizations. If you say "rabbit", something comes to your mind. It's not a real rabbit. It can't eat a carrot, but it's some general blur of all your ideas about rabbits. So this whole process of reasoning is all done through an algebra of these generalization and symbols. It's possible to see the furry beast run across your path and just spontaneously throw it a fish without even thinking a single thought. That's direct cognition. You knew it was a cat without any machinations in your conceptual mind. In the dharma that's considered the highest and truest realization, and that's why we meditate. To go beyond that knowing that comes through conceptual mind and the abstractions it works with. One sees emptiness and the nature of mind directly. One also sees dependent origination directly, and understand how and why to act.

So at least in the Indo-Tibetan tradition, these are all considered part of a continuum. We start our being wrong and mistaken about reality. Then we are told about it. Then we analyze and ponder what we've been told, reasoning it out. Then we meditate on it and directly see how things are.

Zen and Chan are different. I am just starting to learn about them, so I can't comment.
joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by joy&peace »

just a couple more ones from the Dalai Lama:



'I feel that the essence of spiritual practice is your attitude toward others. When you have a pure, sincere motivation, then you have right attitude toward others based on kindness, compassion, love and respect. Practice brings the clear realisation of the oneness of all human beings and the importance of others benefiting by your actions.'


'What is the Great Vehicle? What is the mode of procedure of the Bodhisattva path? We begin with the topic of the altruistic intention to achieve enlightenment in which one values others more than oneself. The Great Vehicle path requires the vast motivation of a Bodhisattva, who, not seeking just his or her welfare, takes on the burden of bringing about the welfare of all sentient beings. When a person generate this attitude, they enter within the Great Vehicle, and as long as it has not been generated, one cannot be counted among those of the Great Vehicle. This attitude really has great power; it, of course, is helpful for people practicing religion, but it also is helpful for those who are just concerned with the affairs of this lifetime. The root of happiness is altruism — the wish to be of service to others.'

from: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gy ... Dalai_Lama
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

joy&peace wrote:just a couple more ones from the Dalai Lama:



'I feel that the essence of spiritual practice is your attitude toward others. When you have a pure, sincere motivation, then you have right attitude toward others based on kindness, compassion, love and respect. Practice brings the clear realisation of the oneness of all human beings and the importance of others benefiting by your actions.'


'What is the Great Vehicle? What is the mode of procedure of the Bodhisattva path? We begin with the topic of the altruistic intention to achieve enlightenment in which one values others more than oneself. The Great Vehicle path requires the vast motivation of a Bodhisattva, who, not seeking just his or her welfare, takes on the burden of bringing about the welfare of all sentient beings. When a person generate this attitude, they enter within the Great Vehicle, and as long as it has not been generated, one cannot be counted among those of the Great Vehicle. This attitude really has great power; it, of course, is helpful for people practicing religion, but it also is helpful for those who are just concerned with the affairs of this lifetime. The root of happiness is altruism — the wish to be of service to others.'

from: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gy ... Dalai_Lama
Yes, he's talking about Bodhicitta, a hugely important subject for sure! Nonetheless, having Bodhicitta does not make one averse to study at all, and in fact HHDL's lineage is known among the four schools of Tibetan Buddhism as being the most focused on study and scholarly pursuits.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by joy&peace »

Who is?
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by joy&peace »

I'm teasing of course.

Personally, I came to the Dalai Lama very, veeeeeeery late in my study of Buddhism. It worked out.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
Urgyen Dorje
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

IMHO it's very important to have a good theoretical and intellectual Buddhist foundation. I know many Buddhists who have practiced for years to just give it up. They either decided that some of the foundational aspects of the Buddhist world view were not true, such as the existence of rebirth, karma, and buddhanature, or they felt they were not progressing. They had no Buddhist education, and no ability to reason through their own questions, so when they came to doubt if there were future lives and if there wasn't this was all just pointless-- they had nowhere to go but quit. People who felt they were not progressing lacked the basic Buddhist education to be able to separate thoughts and emotions from wisdom, and to have enough of an understanding of the grounds and paths of practice to know that they were on course regardless of their feelings and lack of "OOH SHINEY" experiences. I also know Buddhists who just say, "oh, it's all the same", and without a basic enough Buddhist education to know what makes dharma dharma (as well as how to contextualize statements by great lamas like HHDL or Garchen Rinpoche that they are all the same), they just stop thinking critically and start putting together their own path. I have even heard of people putting together paganism, Santaria, and other paths with dharma, not to mention the more common syncreticism with Christianity and different froms of Indian religion.

Just a thought.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:IMHO it's very important to have a good theoretical and intellectual Buddhist foundation. I know many Buddhists who have practiced for years to just give it up. They either decided that some of the foundational aspects of the Buddhist world view were not true, such as the existence of rebirth, karma, and buddhanature, or they felt they were not progressing. They had no Buddhist education, and no ability to reason through their own questions, so when they came to doubt if there were future lives and if there wasn't this was all just pointless-- they had nowhere to go but quit. People who felt they were not progressing lacked the basic Buddhist education to be able to separate thoughts and emotions from wisdom, and to have enough of an understanding of the grounds and paths of practice to know that they were on course regardless of their feelings and lack of "OOH SHINEY" experiences. I also know Buddhists who just say, "oh, it's all the same", and without a basic enough Buddhist education to know what makes dharma dharma (as well as how to contextualize statements by great lamas like HHDL or Garchen Rinpoche that they are all the same), they just stop thinking critically and start putting together their own path. I have even heard of people putting together paganism, Santaria, and other paths with dharma, not to mention the more common syncreticism with Christianity and different froms of Indian religion.

Just a thought.

You're on a roll.

This is one of the fears I think with modern "mindfulness" hyper-focused Dharma practice, eschewing an education is always a bad idea. IME the foundation of everything was study. Maybe that's my bias since I started with sutras and reading prior to meditation, but in many cases even having bare bones idea of "who do I ask about this", or "what do I ask" due to study has saved me from a lot of confusion once I got more serious about practice.

The "all the same" argument drives me bonkers, i've had the conversation in person a few times and man is it sticky. I'm all for studying different beliefs, appreciating them, and learning from them, but IMO it's cheating oneself to say they are "all the same", as well as overlooking that other traditions don't see themselves as "all the same" necessarily either.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by joy&peace »

Letting go of thoughts and concepts is the primary path to experiencing a very deep peace.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
Urgyen Dorje
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

joy&peace...

i actually agree with you. i trust you understand that through your connection through thay.

in the tibetan tradition, we talk about different paths and different methods for beings of different inclinations. many many people can not drop reliance on concepts and thoughts, so they have to be brought onto the path as allies. on the other hand, others can drop them. in the tibetan tradition at least, as you know, there is a gradual path turning the conceptual mind into a bridge to transcend mind. in the dzogchen nyigthig, we drop everything. physical activities, mantra, thoughts, and just abide in the true nature. the hermitages of body, speech, and mind.

on the other hand, with my zen teacher, everything is dropped except for the method. in that context, it seems the path is very different than the tibetan path. it also seems that one relies on the teacher in a different way.
joy&peace wrote:Letting go of thoughts and concepts is the primary path to experiencing a very deep peace.
dreambow
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:59 am

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by dreambow »

Scholarship is helpful if you're entertaining entering academia; its a hindrance on the spiritual path. A lot of people get all puffed up, spouting books, manuscripts, doctorates and entrepreneurial knowhow!. When it comes to enlightenment I want to say...'calm down', you know as little as I do.
joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by joy&peace »

Yes indeed my friend.

Thank you for your words.

you have expressed it very nicely, and yes this is exactly what I was getting at; the relative truths of living well, which lead to good health, and other nice things, are like a temporary shelter. . like stepping stones along the way. there are innumerable teachings which are like this - transform the garbage into something more beautiful.

so this is what i was getting at - if one limits oneself in terms of speech to what is true and good, and helpful and appropriate, and so forth (and other skillful things may apply for sure), that actually helps one to achieve freedom.

when you see it happen (going back to the first para), the transformation. . when that happens, it is so beautiful. . i mean, when it is healed, for real, for good, it is the most beautiful thing - it is the beginning step of a journey; where does it end? who may say but when we get there.

'who will we be in 300 years?' was a very, very fascinating question i passed upon recently.

like, if you are angry with someone, ask, 'who will we be in 300 years?'

it's from a gatha actually and today - finally, finnnnnally i learned the meaning of the word! it means poem.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha
Urgyen Dorje
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Re: Realizations through meditation vs. through thinking

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

There's a difference between "scholarship" and harnessing one's conceptual mind on the path. Many of my dharma friends who bailed on dharma ended up doing so after embracing academic scholarship.

On the other hand, it's a different thing to have some lam rim, Mipham's Khenjuk, some abhidharma, some madhyamaka, and some tantric grounds and paths under one's belt.

dreambow wrote:Scholarship is helpful if you're entertaining entering academia; its a hindrance on the spiritual path. A lot of people get all puffed up, spouting books, manuscripts, doctorates and entrepreneurial knowhow!. When it comes to enlightenment I want to say...'calm down', you know as little as I do.
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”