Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

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Greg
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by Greg »

Paul wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Not all pain is directly related to karma but all indirectly related to karma. Having this karma physical body, one is subject to pain, heat, cold, stress, sickness, old age, and death.
This. Pain is due to a body, a body is due to karma (and karma is due to ignorance).
As I understand it, you are asserting that the sutra passage is merely asserting that karma is always an indirect cause of physical pain insofar as it precipitates having a body in the first place, but it can also sometimes be a direct cause of physical pain. But that reading doesn't really make sense, because karma is never a direct cause of physical pain without some kind of mediating cause (eg a bile disorder). So it doesn't make sense to list it with those other causes as if it was just one possible cause among several.
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by Malcolm »

Greg wrote:
Paul wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Not all pain is directly related to karma but all indirectly related to karma. Having this karma physical body, one is subject to pain, heat, cold, stress, sickness, old age, and death.
This. Pain is due to a body, a body is due to karma (and karma is due to ignorance).
As I understand it, you are asserting that the sutra passage is merely asserting that karma is always an indirect cause of physical pain insofar as it precipitates having a body in the first place, but it can also sometimes be a direct cause of physical pain. But that reading doesn't really make sense, because karma is never a direct cause of physical pain without some kind of mediating cause (eg a bile disorder). So it doesn't make sense to list it with those other causes as if it was just one possible cause among several.
The result of afflictive karma is always suffering. Suffering is always painful, whether mental or physical.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Greg
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by Greg »

Malcolm wrote:The result of afflictive karma is always suffering. Suffering is always painful, whether mental or physical.
That is not what is at issue.
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by Malcolm »

Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The result of afflictive karma is always suffering. Suffering is always painful, whether mental or physical.
That is not what is at issue.

Yes, actually it is. Illnesses are a part of suffering. For example, the Buddha clearly states in the Cula-kamma, that illness in this life is a karmic result of physically harming others. There are also plenty of examples from the Avadanas and so on where specific deformities are taught to to be the result of karma.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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LastLegend
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by LastLegend »

Greg wrote:
As I understand it, you are asserting that the sutra passage is merely asserting that karma is always an indirect cause of physical pain insofar as it precipitates having a body in the first place, but it can also sometimes be a direct cause of physical pain. But that reading doesn't really make sense, because karma is never a direct cause of physical pain without some kind of mediating cause (eg a bile disorder). So it doesn't make sense to list it with those other causes as if it was just one possible cause among several.
The direct cause of pain is mind or body? I would say mind because without mind, like a rock, I assume it has no pain. Anger is directly caused by the mind right? Is it not the body the suffers from anger?
It’s eye blinking.
Greg
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by Greg »

Malcolm wrote:
Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The result of afflictive karma is always suffering. Suffering is always painful, whether mental or physical.
That is not what is at issue.

Yes, actually it is. Illnesses are a part of suffering. For example, the Buddha clearly states in the Cula-kamma, that illness in this life is a karmic result of physically harming others. There are also plenty of examples from the Avadanas and so on where specific deformities are taught to to be the result of karma.
I am not contesting that there are plenty of examples of the Buddha asserting that physical pain can be caused by karma. I am referring to the sutra quoted above that clearly shows the Buddha asserting that sometimes physical pain is not related to karma.

Edit: Alright, I am willing to provisionally accept the gloss provided here by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Some people have interpreted this sutta as stating that there are many experiences that cannot be explained by the principle of kamma. A casual glance of the alternative factors here — drawn from the various causes for pain that were recognized in the medical treatises of his time — would seem to support this conclusion. However, if we compare this list with his definition of old kamma in SN 35.145, we see that many of the alternative causes are actually the result of past actions. Those that aren't are the result of new kamma. For instance, MN 101 counts asceticism — which produces pain in the immediate present — under the factor harsh treatment. The point here is that old and new kamma do not override other causal factors operating in the universe — such as those recognized by the physical sciences — but instead find their expression within those factors. A second point is that some of the influences of past kamma can be mitigated in the present — a disease caused by bile, for instance, can be cured by medicine that brings the bile back to normal. Similarly with the mind: suffering caused by physical pain can be ended by understanding and abandoning the attachment that led to that suffering. In this way, the Buddha's teaching on kamma avoids determinism and opens the way for a path of practice focused on eliminating the causes of suffering in the here and now.
TRC
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Re: Buddhisms view on developmental disabilities

Post by TRC »

Greg wrote:I am referring to the sutra quoted above that clearly shows the Buddha asserting that sometimes physical pain is not related to karma.
Here is another sutra where the Buddha is asserting the same.

  • "There are brahmans & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all caused by what was done in the past.' There are brahmans & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation.' There are brahmans & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all without cause & without condition.'
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