why is Vajrayana considered the fastest way to buddhahood?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
User avatar
reddust
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:29 am
Location: Oregon

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by reddust »

I get in trouble on both forums :tongue:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

santa100 wrote: I'm so so glad that I participated in this thread for I have presented the most vivid proof that Vajrayana cannot be the best and fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools.!

In your imagination.
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

jiashengrox wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:There is a whole thrust of literature that the Tibetans call ཐེག་ཆེན་ བཀའ་སྒྲུབས་ or "Proving Mahayana as the Buddha's Word". The philosophy is worth looking at for those interested in the basis and defense of Mahayana philosophy. I once had a list of works and passages of this genre but have now lost it, which is a shame.
Ven Khedrup, I am not sure if we are suggesting the same thing, but try Chapter 1 or 2 of The Ornament of Mahayana Sutras. I remember there is a whole Chapter in the treatise dedicated to proving the words of the Mahayana to belong to the Buddha. Otherwise, The Chapter 1 of Mahayanasamgraha gives a summarised explanation, with Vasubhandu's bhasya.

:namaste:
Its the subject of chapter one.
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5109
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by conebeckham »

santa100 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Glad you finally revealed your anti-Vajrayāna bias.
Another false accusation. Please re-read my exact wording in the previous post. I'm so so glad that I participated in this thread for I have presented the most vivid proof that Vajrayana cannot be the best and fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools. Simply take a good look at the way Vajrayana "practitioners" gang up and abuse those who challenge their claim. It's amazing isn't it. Sometime the best proof is not from the suttas but from what's right in front of you and what you see!!!

Here are your words:
I'm not "proselytizing" for any particular school, I'm for all the Buddhist schools Mahayana and Theravada that challenge the absurd elitist Vajrayana claim here.
All Vajrayana "schools" make the claims of "Enlightenment in this Life,"" Fastest Path," etc.

Therefore, your statement is to be construed as being "all for Buddhist schools" that challenge "Vajrayana" with their absurd claims. Ergo, you are "for" Mahayana (non-Vajrayana) ad Theravadan schools; you have chosen a side in your assumed "challenge" or "battle."

But just in case we all are misinterpreting your position, I will ask you directly:

"Given the claims common to all Vajrayana Schools, do you support the practice of Vajrayana Buddhism, or not?"

I'm giving you a chance.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
But in any case good fences make good neighbors.
It would appear TRC and santa100 have boundary issues.
Crazywisdom
Posts: 2352
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:N

Yes, the bodhi of a Buddha and an Arahant are the same. The Pali sources, at least, do seem to say this. But Buddha differs from Arahants in two respects: He was first to teach dharma, and by virtue of this, teaches it the best.
That quite depends on what you mean by "bodhi".
I was using the format prevalent in Theravada. I recognize Mahayana and Vajrayana have a specific way to rank attainments that the Theravada does not have.

Two things come to mind about this:

1) Mahayanists are not in agreement about how to rank APBBs (Arahanta, Pratekyabuddhas, Bodhisattvas and Buddhas).

2) But Mahayanists seem to agree that all APBBs have attained at least the first Bhumi, and agree that the first Bhumi is beyond the samsaric condition.

This seems to be a point of common ground. Bodhi starts here at least. I believe it is important to appreciate the preciousness of not just Arahants, but even stream enterers, even devotees.

All of the above is some kin of bodhi at the very least. The details of the attainments, in a way, is "family business," you know... Save the drama for your lama, teacher, etc.

Suttanta devotees will run into trouble when they seek to ferret out their view via online debates with folks who adhere to the teacher-disciple model. Suttanta people will have to do the online debate thing with each other, if that is going to be an important feature of modern Buddhist praxis. It could be useful if they take an honest Socratic approach and honestly try to advance opposing theories to see where the Suttanta position lies.

Where we see a diversity of practitioners, especially online, perhaps a disciplined effort to meet in the middle would improve the overall forum experience.

-Crazyman Sam
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

conebeckham wrote:"Given the claims common to all Vajrayana Schools, do you support the practice of Vajrayana Buddhism, or not?"
I'm giving you a chance.
I remember you're the one who accused people challenging the Vajrayana claim as "pissing all over someone else's tradition". And I have replied that nothing can do a better job of "pissing all over someone else's tradition" than claiming or hinting that Vajrayana is the fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools. And just because this is the "Mahayana/Vajrayana" forum doesn't give you the right to say that. There will be people who will challenge it. About your question for me, I already provided the answer to the previous post. I have no problem with Vajrayana. I do have a problem with the the wild claim that Vajrayana as the fastest vehicle above all other schools and that it will make one becomes a Fully Enlightened Buddha in a single lifetime. That's an insult and a disgrace to the true spirit of Vajrayana. And I have to say thank you again to all of you supposedly Vajrayana "practitioners" who have spectacularly disproved your own claim through the way you treat people on this thread. Becoming a Fully Englightened Buddha in one single lifetime with that kind of behavior? Who are you kidding? Sounds more like you'll need 3 billion more aeons for that!
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Adi »

santa100 wrote:
conebeckham wrote:"Given the claims common to all Vajrayana Schools, do you support the practice of Vajrayana Buddhism, or not?"
I'm giving you a chance.
I remember you're the one who accused people challenging the Vajrayana claim as "pissing all over someone else's tradition". And I have replied that nothing can do a better job of "pissing all over someone else's tradition" than claiming or hinting that Vajrayana is the fastest vehicle above all other Buddhist schools. And just because this is the "Mahayana/Vajrayana" forum doesn't give you the right to say that. There will be people who will challenge it. About your question for me, I already provided the answer to the previous post. I have no problem with Vajrayana. I do have a problem with the the wild claim that Vajrayana as the fastest vehicle above all other schools and that it will make one becomes a Fully Enlightened Buddha in a single lifetime. That's an insult and a disgrace to the true spirit of Vajrayana. And I have to say thank you again to all of you supposedly Vajrayana "practitioners" who have spectacularly disproved your own claim through the way you treat people on this thread. Becoming a Fully Englightened Buddha in one single lifetime with that kind of behavior? Who are you kidding? Sounds more like you'll need 3 billion more aeons for that!
So then the answer is "no." Nothing wrong with that, though you might find more congenial company elsewhere.

adi
Crazywisdom
Posts: 2352
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Crazywisdom »

santa100 wrote:There will be people who will challenge it.
How would you challenge it, unless were experienced in Vajrayana and Theravada? I don't see a basis for making counterclaims here.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

santa100 wrote:And just because this is the "Mahayana/Vajrayana" forum doesn't give you the right to say that.
Of course it does.
I have no problem with Vajrayana. I do have a problem with the the wild claim that Vajrayana as the fastest vehicle above all other schools and that it will make one becomes a Fully Enlightened Buddha in a single lifetime.
Umm, that is exactly what Vajrayāna texts state without reservation.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

No need for me to challenge anything anymore for you guys have already disproved your own claims through your behavior already.
Crazywisdom
Posts: 2352
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Crazywisdom »

santa100 wrote:No need for me to challenge anything anymore for you guys have already disproved your own claims through your behavior already.
This is the first time I've written to you. I would like to hear your argument that Vajrayana claims are unfounded.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Fri May 23, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Crazywisdom, I know it's a long thread, but have you read any of my previous posts?
Crazywisdom
Posts: 2352
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Crazywisdom »

santa100 wrote:Crazywisdom, I know it's a long thread, but have you read any of my previous posts?
I've read the thread. As I understand it your dispute with Vadrsyana comes from claims about what the Pali Canon states. Is that right?

I tried to address some of those claims in my first post. Did you read that?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Malcolm wrote:By your words you have shown this to be so. You have also demonstrated huge ignorance about Vajrayāna texts with your tempest in a teapot here.
And you've also demonstrated a distorted view of Vajrayana text, even the basic Tibetan equivalence of MN 115 I have repeatedly provided.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Crazywisdom wrote:I've read the thread. As I understand it your dispute with Vadrsyana comes from claims about what the Pali Canon states. Is that right?
No, please see the cross references I've provided many times about the Chinese Taishos and the Tibetan equivalences of MN 115 and AN 4.180. It is the Buddha's teaching across all Buddhist schools, not just the Theravada.
Crazywisdom
Posts: 2352
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Crazywisdom »

santa100 wrote:From the "Great References" sutta (AN 4.180), the Buddha taught us the proper way to handle claims made by other people:
a bhikkhu might say: ‘In such and such a residence several elder bhikkhus are dwelling who are learned, heirs to the heritage, experts on the Dhamma, experts on the discipline, experts on the outlines. In the presence of those elders I heard this; in their presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly learned by those elders.’ Thus you should discard it.
Then from the "Elements" discourse (MN 115), the Buddha taught this truth about Fully Enlightened Ones (SammaSambuddha):
It is impossible, it cannot happen that two Accomplished Ones, Fully Enlightened Ones, could arise contemporaneously in one world-system—there is no such possibility.
which Ven. Bodhi further explained:
the Pali commentary associated with the above text from MN 115 states: The arising of another Buddha is impossible from the time a bodhisatta takes his final conception in his mother's womb until his Dispensation has completely disappeared. The problem is discussed at Miln 236–39. The referenced Milindapanha section is entitled, Ekabuddhadhāraṇī - pañho
Bottom line is, though many masters from various schools claimed their attainment of "Buddhahood", per the suttas' teaching, it doesn't mean they have attained "Fully Enlightened" Buddha state for the Dispensation is still around. If they meant the state of Savakabuddha or Arahantship, then any Buddhist school would be just as good provided that its practitioner puts in their best effort to cultivate virtues, meditation, and wisdom (as mentioned from my previous post here)
For example the claim made above, Buddha does not say which discourses, or which language. It is mere assumption he refers only to Pali. Buddha did not speak Pali.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7203
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

And just because this is the "Mahayana/Vajrayana" forum doesn't give you the right to say that.
If not here, then where?
And I have to say thank you again to all of you supposedly Vajrayana "practitioners" who have spectacularly disproved your own claim through the way you treat people on this thread.
Dharma practice in general, and Vajrayana in particular, is a little like learning to play the violin. At the beginning stages the screeches and off-key playing is unbearable. Some learn quickly, others slowly. But all start at screeches and noise. It is only later on with proficiency that it begins to sound like music.

Sorry if your ears are hurting.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Crazywisdom wrote:For example the claim made above, Buddha does not say which discourses, or which language. It is mere assumption he refers only to Pali. Buddha did not speak Pali.
But that's irrelevant. The fact that you have the exact equivalence in the Agamas and the Tibetan prove that this is universally accepted by all Buddhist schools. I have yet to see a single piece of proof from the other side, with the Buddha's own words to support the claim about the "fastest" vehicle and Fully Enlightened Buddha in a single lifetime though.
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

santa100 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:By your words you have shown this to be so. You have also demonstrated huge ignorance about Vajrayāna texts with your tempest in a teapot here.
And you've also demonstrated a distorted view of Vajrayana text, even the basic Tibetan equivalence of MN 115 I have repeatedly provided.
Not everything in the Tibetan Canon is Vajrayāna; there are Mainstream Buddhist texts like Vinaya, Abhidharma and so on, as well as their commentaries, and a few scattered sūtras from the Agamas, but very few indeed; Mahāyāna texts like the Prajñāpāramita, Avatamska and so on, as well as their commentaries; and Vajrayāna texts like Kalacakra, Hevajra, Manjushri Namasamgiti, etc., and their commentaries.

The interpretive rule is simple — where a Mahāyāna texts contradicts a Mainstream Buddhist text such as the one you cited, the Mahāyāna text takes precedence. Where a Vajrayāna text contradicts a Mahāyāna text, the Vajrayāna text takes precedence.

It is that simple. Because you do not understand how those of us in Tibetan Buddhism are trained to understand our own canon, you have made several erroneous assertions that I have kindly and patiently corrected.
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”