why is Vajrayana considered the fastest way to buddhahood?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Post Reply
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Adi »

TRC wrote:
Adi wrote:...As already noted there are hundreds of biographies about such practitioners available, hundreds of dharma centers to visit, and thousands of texts. So check it out if you find it interesting.
These are just more claims. Claims without being backed-up with evidence are baseless.
Like I've said & to make another analogy, you have been told what is in the library. If you don't want to actually make the effort to go there and read, that's fine. But standing outside the library and saying what is in it is baseless without actually been inside and read seems like a waste of your time.
So let’s look at what we have here: We have one Buddhist tradition among many claiming to have the most relevant teachings and the fastest way to enlightenment. Do people not see that particularly in terms of Buddhadharma, that this is extremely arrogant and pejorative? This is very interesting in light of advising others to apply right speech!
I am not making that claim. Furthermore, I didn't make the advice to apply Right Speech. Buddha did.
JKhedrup wrote:However, from the headline of a thread, we can see what is written is an answer, from a Vajrayana POV, to a very specific question.
Exactly so. Each Buddhist school starts with their own point of view. To understand the very basics of such views is crucial to understanding anything further that's being talked about. Without that understanding, it can all sound like so much babbling arrogance, nonsense or whatnot. But if one stops to think about it, does anyone really think another person would waste their time studying babbling arrogance and nonsense if they felt something better was available?

Adi
M.G.
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by M.G. »

My 2 cents:

There's never going to be proof In a cold statistical sense that the Vajrayana works any better than anything else. At a personal or experiential level it comes down to which spiritual teachers one genuinely finds impressive and which practices one can honestly say are of real benefit.
User avatar
Konchog1
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Konchog1 »

Each Tantra praises itself. Many proclaim themselves to be the supreme Tantra. Many Sutras do too.

Which are lying?

They're all telling the truth. Based on the person and the work ethic. Vajrayana itself likely works the same way.

But yeah, Liberation and Enlightenment are two different things.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

santa100 wrote: All I see there is the key phrase "every sentient being is fully shown", which says nothing about the claim you said Vajrayana as the best vehicle for one to attain Fully Enlightened Buddha state (SammaSambuddha) and more importantly, nothing that contradicts the Buddha's teaching in MN 115 that "It is impossible, it cannot happen that two Accomplished Ones, Fully Enlightened Ones, could arise contemporaneously in one world-system—there is no such possibility".
I already explained to you that there can only be one supreme nirmanakāya in any given world system. But this does not preclude variegated nirmanakāyas, as I have already explained.

Again, nothing about Vajrayana and nothing about the fastest way to attain Fully Enlightend state.
Yes, it is axiomatic that Vajrayāna makes such claims. Do you really want me to dig out the Vajrayāna citations about variegated nirmanakāyas and the rapidity of Vajrayāna? Is it necessary? I can, if it will make you happy.

I am not trying to convert anyone, I was merely answering a posed question. I really do not see why people are getting so up in arms over this.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Please understand that I'm in no way trying give you a hard time. But in order to engage in an informative, fair and objective discussion, we need to support our claims with backup literatures and proper sutra references. So far, I have not seen the appropriate sources to support your claim that Vajrayana is indeed the "fastest" vehicle that helps one to become a Fully Enlightened Buddha (SammaSambuddha). On my part, I have provided 2 sources straight from the Buddha's teaching in the Tipitaka: one is the proper way to handle peoples' claims and the other is the impossibility of 2 Fully Enlightened Buddhas in the same world-system ( source here )
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

santa100 wrote:Please understand that I'm in no way trying give you a hard time. But in order to engage in an informative, fair and objective discussion, we need to support our claims with backup literatures and proper sutra references. So far, I have not seen the appropriate sources to support your claim that Vajrayana is indeed the "fastest" vehicle that helps one to become a Fully Enlightened Buddha (SammaSambuddha). On my part, I have provided 2 sources straight from the Buddha's teaching in the Tipitaka: one is the proper way to handle peoples' claims and the other is the impossibility of 2 Fully Enlightened Buddhas in the same world-system ( source here )

The Guhyasamāja states:
  • Because of this, lords of Dharma,
    ornamented with an ocean of wisdom
    arising from the three inseparable kāyas,
    accomplish [buddhahood] in this life.
Śrī-devīkālī-nāmāṣṭaśataka:
  • Omniscient and self-knowing,
    also the twelve bhumis of buddhahood
    are rapidly produced in this lifetime.

Śrī-candraguhyatilaka-nāma-mahātantrarājā
  • The great bliss of all siddhis
    will be accomplished by this in one lifetime.
Sarvatathāgatacittaguhyajñānārthagarbhavajrakrodhakulatantrapinathārthavidyāyogasiddhi-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
  • In this one lifetime, sambuddhahood.
Do you really need me to continue?
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Malcolm wrote:The Guhyasamaja states:... accomplish[buddhahood] in this life
the "buddhahood" in brackets is your own note? If not, still says nothing about SammaSambuddha as I have requested. Also, please provide URL.
Malcolm wrote:Sri-devikali-namastasata:...
Please provide full context with URL to make sure this talks about sentient beings instead of the Buddha himself.
Malcolm wrote:Sri-candraguhyatilaka-nama-mahatantraraja:...
Please, for crying out loud, one doesn't even have to be a Buddhist Noble disciple to master the siddhis.
So, yes, please continue, there's still nothing about being the "fastest" nor SammaSambuddha as repeatedly requested.
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

Malcolm wrote:The Guhyasamaja states:... accomplish[buddhahood] in this life
the "buddhahood" in brackets is your own note? If not, still says nothing about SammaSambuddha as I have requested. Also, please provide URL.
Guhyasamaja

It is based on the commentary, which clarifies that "in this lifetime" refers to attaining the state of Buddha Mahāvajradhara.

Malcolm wrote:Sri-devikali-namastasata:...
Please provide full context with URL to make sure this talks about sentient beings instead of the Buddha himself.
Sri-devikali-namastasata

Malcolm wrote:Sri-candraguhyatilaka-nama-mahatantraraja:...
Please, for crying out loud, one doesn't even have to be a Buddhist Noble disciple to master the siddhis.
So, yes, please continue, there's still nothing about being the "fastest" nor SammaSambuddha as repeatedly requested.
Ummm, actually, "all siddhis" means both the common siddhis as well as the supreme siddhi, buddhahood.

In general, in order to accomplish Buddhahood, it takes three incalculable eons. So when when a texts says that this can happen in a single lifetime, that is fast. There is no Mainstream Buddhist sūtra nor Mahāyāna sūtra that assserts full buddhahood can be realized in a single lifetime. This is strictly a Vajrayāna claim.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Malcolm wrote:It is based on the commentary, which clarifies...
...This is strictly a Vajrayana claim
As you've said, it's the comy.'s interpretation, not the Buddha's own words. At best, it's still a life time work, not the Satipatthana sutta's attainment in 7 days. Combined with the "Great References" sutta AN 4.180 and your own signature quote:
"If he does not teach according to the words of the Buddha
even if he is a guru, one should remain indifferent. "
-- Sakya Pandita
, it'll remain "strictly a Vajrayana claim".
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

santa100 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is based on the commentary, which clarifies...
...This is strictly a Vajrayana claim
As you've said, it's the comy.'s interpretation, not the Buddha's own words. At best, it's still a life time work, not the Satipatthana sutta's attainment in 7 days.
This is the attainment of an Arhat, not even that of a first stage bodhisattva. It is completely different.

And no, King Indrabhuti and many other siddhas attained buddhahood merely through receiving empowerments.

Anyway, your mind is made up. You have decided that Mainstream Buddhist sutras are the most authoritative. I respect that and wish you all the best of luck.
Sakya Pandita...
...says:
  • If one who possesses the three vows
    understands the profound points of the two stages,
    it is said that in this life, the bardo
    or within sixteen lifetimes,
    that one will accomplish perfect buddhahood.
Incidentally, there are many other such citations from the tantras, but I don't have time to dig them all out for you.
santa100
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:56 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Malcolm wrote:This is the attainment of an Arhat, not even that of a first stage bodhisattva. It is completely different.
And no, King Indrabhuti and many other siddhas attained buddhahood merely through receiving empowerments.
Then prove it by providing the Buddha's own words, not your interpretation nor some comy. Anyway, your mind is also made up. You've made claim about Vajrayana being the "fastest" vehicle above all other schools of Buddhism. I'd simply say that you're entitled to your own interpretation and also wish you all the best of luck.
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Admin_PC »

Malcolm wrote:There is no Mainstream Buddhist sūtra nor Mahāyāna sūtra that assserts full buddhahood can be realized in a single lifetime. This is strictly a Vajrayāna claim.
Would the The Vairocanābhisaṃbodhi Sutra be considered a Vajrayāna Sutra?
Malcolm
Posts: 32825
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Malcolm »

PorkChop wrote:
Malcolm wrote:There is no Mainstream Buddhist sūtra nor Mahāyāna sūtra that assserts full buddhahood can be realized in a single lifetime. This is strictly a Vajrayāna claim.
Would the The Vairocanābhisaṃbodhi Sutra be considered a Vajrayāna Sutra?
Yes.
  • Moreover, he assumed the appearance of vajradharas and the bodhisattvas Samantabhadra, Padmapāṇi, and so on, and proclaimed everywhere in the ten directions the Dharma of the pure words of the mantra path so that [all the steps from] the initial generation of the [bodhi-]mind up to the ten stages may be progressively satisfied in this lifetime, the seeds of the karmic[ally determined] lives of the varieties of sentient beings who have been born and nurtured by karma may be eradicated, and there may also occur the sprouting of [wholesome] seeds.
TRC
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:23 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by TRC »

Malcolm wrote:This is the attainment of an Arhat, not even that of a first stage bodhisattva. It is completely different.
Here we have another specious claim to go with the original specious claim.

Why would the Buddha, the founder of the movement teach such a lowly level of awakening (I.E. the Arahant)? It just defies logic.

I think the Vajrayana just needs to feel it is special. It has to claim the highest, quickest, most profound path to awakening, but in reality it amounts to hot air and sectarian posturing.
Last edited by TRC on Fri May 23, 2014 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Adi »

TRC wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is the attainment of an Arhat, not even that of a first stage bodhisattva. It is completely different.
Here we have another specious claim to go with the original specious claim.

Why would the Buddha, the founder of the movement teach such a lowly level of awakening (I.E. the Arahant)? It just defies logic.

I think the Vajrayana just needs to feel it is special. It has to claim the highest, quickest, most profound path to awakening, but in reality it amounts hot air and sectarian posturing.
What you see is what you get.

Adi
User avatar
dharmagoat
Posts: 2154
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by dharmagoat »

TRC wrote:I think the Vajrayana just needs to feel it is special. It has to claim the highest, quickest, most profound path to awakening, but in reality it amounts hot air and sectarian posturing.
Who is to say that hot air and sectarian posturing is not a profound path in its own right?

What would Buddha say?
TRC
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:23 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by TRC »

Adi wrote:
TRC wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is the attainment of an Arhat, not even that of a first stage bodhisattva. It is completely different.
Here we have another specious claim to go with the original specious claim.

Why would the Buddha, the founder of the movement teach such a lowly level of awakening (I.E. the Arahant)? It just defies logic.

I think the Vajrayana just needs to feel it is special. It has to claim the highest, quickest, most profound path to awakening, but in reality it amounts hot air and sectarian posturing.
What you see is what you get.

Adi
Or it maybe more the case, that what you don't see is what you get.
TRC
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:23 am

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by TRC »

dharmagoat wrote:
TRC wrote:I think the Vajrayana just needs to feel it is special. It has to claim the highest, quickest, most profound path to awakening, but in reality it amounts hot air and sectarian posturing.
Who is to say that hot air and sectarian posturing is not a profound path in its own right?

What would Buddha say?
Sounds like the path of a political party to get elected ... ;)
Adi
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by Adi »

TRC wrote:...Or it maybe more the case, that what you don't see is what you get.
:) Well, that is certainly true when you get surprise rear-ended in an automobile collision and other places where things not seen really have an impact.

But it's old Buddhism 101, though. If you see Buddha as Buddha then that is what you get. If you see a path as full of hot air, then that is what you get, hot air. If you see it as something else, then you get something else. Depends on your capacity, causes and conditions and motivations. For instance, a balloonist would love a path of pure hot air on command. An ice sculptor, not so much.

Adi
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5109
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: why is Vajrayana considered the fasted way to buddhahood

Post by conebeckham »

Quite frankly, time would be better spent practicing than pissing all over someone else's tradition.
If people get pissed over the triumphalist claims of various teachers, lineages, traditions, well, then......what does that say about anyone's equanimity? This is, after all, a Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist board......so it should be clear to everyone where the allegiances lie.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”