Non-celibacy

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Lazy_eye
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Non-celibacy

Post by Lazy_eye »

I was reading the latest celibacy thread with interest. It occurred to me that much of the angst surrounding this issue stems from non-celibates feeling confused or uncertain about how to practice and apply Buddhist teachings when there is an apparent conflict of goals. Many non-celibate people (myself included) do not wish to go beyond the fifth precept. There may be various reasons for this, some selfish, others less so. For example, aspiring to celibacy could have a destructive effect on a relationship unless both partners are committed Buddhists.

While Buddhist teachers make a point of stressing that laypeople are not excluded, there are nevertheless a number of practical problems, e.g.

-- Sense desire is one of the hindrances to meditation.
-- Right Intention refers to the intention to renounce.
-- "Avoid harm. cultivate good, purify the mind" -- I believe this refers to avoiding akusala and cultivating kusala actions. Sex is "akusala" according to Buddhism so the non-celibate is failing Dharma 101.
-- If one goes off on retreat and attains deep insights, what happens upon return to the dusty crowded household life?
-- If one is following koan practice and achieves sudden enlightenment, how do you then take care of family and household life?

I could probably add to this list, but I think the overall problem should be clear. So I would like to ask DW members if they have practical answers to these sorts of problems. In particular, answers to these questions.

1. What would be an appropriate goal or goals?
2. What types of practice are appropriate?
3. Should one meditate? If so, what kind of meditation practices are most suitable?
4. When involved in sense pleasures, is it better to simply put the dharma aside for that time, or is there some "mindful" approach that can be brought into play?
5. Among the various Mahayana and Vajrayana schools, which offer the most possibilities for the (non-celibate) householder? Or are they all about the same?
6. How do you (if you are in this kind of situation) practice and what are your goals?

Again, just to be clear and avoid unnecessary digressions, what I have in mind here are practitioners who do not aspire to celibacy, in this lifetime at least.

In the interests of full disclosure, let me mention that the issue has been a conceptual and practical barrier for me; it caused me to discontinue investigating the dharma for a number of months as I came to feel that Buddhist goals were incompatible with my own.

Look forward to reading your thoughts.
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Wayfarer
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Wayfarer »

It's not a black-and-white question. In the other thread you mentioned, at one point, it was suggested that the alternative to 'celibacy' was 'starting a family'. I thought 'if they were the only two alternatives, then there really wouldn't be much to discuss.'

I think the Buddhist view is not only about sexual desire, but about sensuality in general. Sensuality is attachment to sensations, to forms, to pleasures, and so on. Sexual acts have the additional dimension of giving rise to children with all of the further consequences of being responsible for their upbringing and so forth. (Did you know that the son the Buddha left when he set out for the holy life was named 'Rahula', meaning 'fetter'?)

I suppose sexuality is sensuality par excellence - the most intense forms of sensual pleasure. It also seems to me that in Western capitalist economics, sensuality generally, and sex in particular, are accepted as sources of pleasure and things which can be pursued for their own sake. It's a very hedonistic society. The traditional view that the framework for a meaningful sexual relationship was a life-long commitment, namely marriage, seems to have been dissolved (as attested by the explosive rise in single-parent families in the West). Sexual products and practices are nowadays described in terms of an 'industry'; Indeed according to a PBS documentary, the 'sex industry' generates more revenue than movies, music and sports, combined. Cyber-sex and internet-mediated sexual activities are hugely pervasive amongst the young; there have been press reports that more than 90% of 12 year olds have viewed internet pornography.

I think that is the context in which sexual relationships would be regarded as 'unskillful'. How many sexual problems relate to married people who want to keep having sex with each other? I would think the answer would be 'very few'.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Astus »

First I'd like to extend the area of investigation to all sense pleasures and not only sex. This I find important, because while sex is supposedly the ultimate sense pleasure, it is hardly the only one. In fact, there are perfectly ordinary people, who are not even Buddhists, who spend years without any sexual relationship, but not without all sense pleasures.

Eating and drinking are the most common source of sense pleasure. Tasty food is practically a basic requirement even for the cheapest fast food products. And although infusion can sustain the bodily functions, just as various nutritional products, we don't even call them food. Something without any taste is almost inedible. Why is that? Because we like to eat and we like to feel good tastes. But I have yet to see Buddhists debating with each other about whether to switch to injecting themselves with some sort of nutritional liquid or stay with consuming common food. That's probably because eating is not considered a big issue. In the same fashion one could consider various drinks - and there's no need to include alcohol here - like tea, coffee, juices, milk, and all the other kinds. Other sensory areas also give us almost infinite forms of pleasure, like the melody of a sutra recitation and the golden colours of a Buddha painting. And the joys of an intellectual challenge is a whole different area, although something not considered sense pleasure.

Is it possible to enjoy a nice meal and still be a good Buddhist? Is it allowed for a zealous practitioner to find a few moments of happiness in the smell of spring flowers? How about the hermit living up in the mountains and writing poems about the beauty of the scene?

Can a buddha eat a slice of chocolate cake and not fall out of nirvana? If yes, is it because he feels no taste, or because he makes no difference between good or bad taste, or because he is not attached to it, or is it something else? If he feels no taste, that would be annihilationism. If he makes no difference between good or bad taste, that would be indifference. If he is not attached to it, that would be escapism.

It is easy to come up with some theoretical excuse that everything is empty and the mind is originally pure. Or a practical-looking attitude of "just be in the moment". Although they are good advice, unless one can live it, they are useless. Whatever solution one thinks is there, it is nothing but another identity view.

No matter what is the explanation, the very effort of trying to prove that enjoying this or that shows how one is stuck with a concept of purity. What one should pay attention to is rather the emotional and intellectual frustration one generates constantly regarding all sorts of phenomena. This approach of "I'm not good enough" is mistaken from the very beginning, and the same goes for such ideas as "I'm sinful because I like strawberry cake".

As I see it, besides the saintly stories of the enlightened masters of the past one should also recognise the human world. And only when samsara and nirvana are no different from each other, when things are simply what they are, then it becomes possible to stop being afraid of whatever comes or whatever goes.

Yunmen said (tr. App, p 95),

"when someone gets there, speaking about fire does not burn his mouth. He can discuss the matter all day long without it ever touching his lips and teeth and without uttering a single word. Though he eats and all day long wears his robe, he never touches a single grain of rice nor a single thread."

And Linji paraphrasing Lanzan (tr. Sasaki, p 11),

"Followers of the Way, as to buddhadharma, no effort is necessary. You have only to be ordinary, with nothing to do -defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired. Fools laugh at me, but the wise understand."

Dazhu Huihai explains (tr. Lok To),

Once a Vinaya Master came and asked: "In your practice of the Tao, do you still work hard?"
The Master answered: "Yes, I still work hard."
The Vinaya Master asked: "How hard?"
The Master retorted: "If I'm hungry, I eat. If I'm tired, I sleep. "
The Vinaya Master asked: "Do all other people work hard just as you do?"
The Master answered: "No, not in the same way."
The Vinaya Master asked: "Why not?"
The Master answered: "While they are eating, they are not really eating due to too much thinking. While they are sleeping, they are not really sleeping due to too much mental agitation. Therefore, they do not work in the same way I do."
The Vinaya Master, on hearing this, fell silent.


And Bodhidharma relates this to sex (tr. Red Pine, p 39),

But since married laymen don’t give up sex, bow can they become Buddhas?
I only talk about seeing your nature. I don’t talk about sex simply because you don’t see your nature. Once you see your nature, sex is basically immaterial. It ends along with your delight in it. Even if some habits remain’, they can’t harm you, because your nature is essentially pure. Despite dwelling in a material body of four elements, your nature is basically pure. It can’t be corrupted.


Finally, Daehaeng Sunim sums it up,

"It’s natural to think about and take care of the things that come up in your life. I’ve never said, “Don’t make money, don’t participate in society, don’t fall in love, don’t do anything at all.” Just understand that everything is already flowing, and don’t try to cling to it. Nothing remains stationary and unchanging."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
5heaps
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by 5heaps »

having sex wont prevent your from reaching samadhi or shamata
its just that as you progress sex will seem coarser and coarser in comparison to your mind in concentration. at a certain threshold you will be spending more time enjoying a concentrated mind than time spent enjoying or thinking about sex, thats all

later on when you get serious, you already reached shamata, and now you want dhyana, the threshold becomes a matter of spending more time in concentration then you do outside of concentration throughout the day. as your time spent in concentration grows to be longer than the time you spend out of it, all the desire realm habits in the mind begin to peel away

in other words it will naturally lessen as you progress

food is way worse
im mostly on a liquid diet because the second i eat solid food i feel bloated and heavy, even my posture becomes severely affected. it is extremely pleasurable to have a stomach empty of solid food being digested, mostly because the posture of the body is aligned correctly
uan
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by uan »

Lazy_eye wrote:I was reading the latest celibacy thread with interest. It occurred to me that much of the angst surrounding this issue stems from non-celibates feeling confused or uncertain about how to practice and apply Buddhist teachings when there is an apparent conflict of goals.

This may be true of some, but not true of all, most or even many non-celibates.

For those people who have angst surrounding whether to be celibate or not, I wonder to what extent they have teachers? It seems to me that part of the angst comes from people who do not have teachers and are trying to self-teach, or intuit, what practice they should be doing and when.

The statement "While Buddhist teachers make a point of stressing ..." is very abstract and general. Are these your Buddhist teachers? Are they also making a point that random people who come across their words should then put those words at the forefront of their practice?

Buddhist teachers say a lot of things. Great for giving people the lay of the land, but that's far different then advising an actual student. Often when we say something like "The Dalai Lama says we should be doing ..." or "Thich Nhat Hanh says ...", and so we go out and do those things, or advise others to do those things, when in fact we got what HHDL/TNH (or others) said from some book we read, rather than directly from them to us. At that point, we are really just doing our own thing, being our own teacher, and then deluding ourselves by thinking we are being taught by some master. It's a logical fallacy that's easy to fall into (I include myself in this), where we have opinions and we use selective appeals to authority to justify our opinions.

It's like the blind leading the blind and one blind guys say, "we should go this way" and the other says, "are you sure?"
To which the first guy says, "yes, a sighted person said we should."
"What did he say?"
"He said, 'go in the right direction'"
"Ah," says the second blind guy,"yes, that makes perfect sense, we should go in the right direction. Are we going in the right direction?"
"Yes," says the first guy,"it's this way."

Students who are their own teachers are then likely to suffer from angst, or a long amble down false trails and rabbit holes, or in the best case, stumbling along somewhat in the right direction.

As to whether to be celibate or not, it may be appropriate for one person, not for another. Talk with your teacher/guru. If you don't have one, perhaps more important than celibacy is finding a good teacher.

Of course, as with everything, YMMV.
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Lazy_eye »

Wayfarer wrote:I suppose sexuality is sensuality par excellence - the most intense forms of sensual pleasure. It also seems to me that in Western capitalist economics, sensuality generally, and sex in particular, are accepted as sources of pleasure and things which can be pursued for their own sake. It's a very hedonistic society. The traditional view that the framework for a meaningful sexual relationship was a life-long commitment, namely marriage, seems to have been dissolved (as attested by the explosive rise in single-parent families in the West). Sexual products and practices are nowadays described in terms of an 'industry'; Indeed according to a PBS documentary, the 'sex industry' generates more revenue than movies, music and sports, combined. Cyber-sex and internet-mediated sexual activities are hugely pervasive amongst the young; there have been press reports that more than 90% of 12 year olds have viewed internet pornography.

I think that is the context in which sexual relationships would be regarded as 'unskillful'. How many sexual problems relate to married people who want to keep having sex with each other? I would think the answer would be 'very few'.
I agree that Buddhism can be a good counterbalance to this trend, an anchor point for a more humane and moral life, and perhaps a way to help prevent the suffering caused by heedless indulgence. At the level of ordinary lay practice, Buddhist teachers across different traditions have good advice. I could give many examples, but will just quote this one paragraph from Hsing Yun: "Buddhism does not necessarily reject feelings; it advocates that feelings be imbued with compassion, purified by reason, circumscribed by etiquette and guided by wisdom. Buddhism encourages intimacy between husband and wife, respect and forgiveness between parents and children, as well as care and co-operation among friends. Buddhism goes further by asking us to practice 'unconditional loving-kindness and compassion for all'."

This seems like a reasonable and beneficial set of principles, though probably not too different from teachings in other religions. For people who are mainly looking to Buddhism as a way to give some moral direction to their worldly lives, the kinds of questions that I brought up in the OP probably don't apply. This kind of Buddhist is not really after enlightenment, but more interested in a happy and meaningful present life, and a fortunate rebirth.

The complications start to arise when worldly people start to investigate the more transcendent teachings and take up practices such as regular meditation and/or going on retreat, contemplating koans, and so on. Because once you gravitate towards higher-order Buddhism, you are taking practices that have always been framed as part of a path of renunciation, even though one is still involved with worldly commitments. So the question becomes how to balance the two without experiencing too much cognitive dissonance.
Eating and drinking are the most common source of sense pleasure. Tasty food is practically a basic requirement even for the cheapest fast food products. And although infusion can sustain the bodily functions, just as various nutritional products, we don't even call them food. Something without any taste is almost inedible. Why is that? Because we like to eat and we like to feel good tastes. But I have yet to see Buddhists debating with each other about whether to switch to injecting themselves with some sort of nutritional liquid or stay with consuming common food. That's probably because eating is not considered a big issue. In the same fashion one could consider various drinks - and there's no need to include alcohol here - like tea, coffee, juices, milk, and all the other kinds. Other sensory areas also give us almost infinite forms of pleasure, like the melody of a sutra recitation and the golden colours of a Buddha painting. And the joys of an intellectual challenge is a whole different area, although something not considered sense pleasure.

Is it possible to enjoy a nice meal and still be a good Buddhist? Is it allowed for a zealous practitioner to find a few moments of happiness in the smell of spring flowers? How about the hermit living up in the mountains and writing poems about the beauty of the scene?

Can a buddha eat a slice of chocolate cake and not fall out of nirvana? If yes, is it because he feels no taste, or because he makes no difference between good or bad taste, or because he is not attached to it, or is it something else? If he feels no taste, that would be annihilationism. If he makes no difference between good or bad taste, that would be indifference. If he is not attached to it, that would be escapism.
Those are excellent questions Astus, and rather than trying to answer them, I feel it is beneficial to contemplate them. They are questions worth keeping in mind when engaged with any of the activities you mention.
5heaps wrote:having sex wont prevent your from reaching samadhi or shamata
its just that as you progress sex will seem coarser and coarser in comparison to your mind in concentration. at a certain threshold you will be spending more time enjoying a concentrated mind than time spent enjoying or thinking about sex, thats all

later on when you get serious, you already reached shamata, and now you want dhyana, the threshold becomes a matter of spending more time in concentration then you do outside of concentration throughout the day. as your time spent in concentration grows to be longer than the time you spend out of it, all the desire realm habits in the mind begin to peel away

in other words it will naturally lessen as you progress.
That is my understanding as well. But it raises the practical question: if one does not wish for this result, should one meditate at all? That is, suppose one wants to retain an ability to engage and be interested in the desire realm.
uan wrote: For those people who have angst surrounding whether to be celibate or not, I wonder to what extent they have teachers? It seems to me that part of the angst comes from people who do not have teachers and are trying to self-teach, or intuit, what practice they should be doing and when.
Uan, I am framing these questions more from the standpoint of someone who is exploring Buddhism but has not yet at the point where he or she would train with a teacher. Having a teacher represents a deeper level of commitment. There are several issues in Buddhism that can pose serious obstacles for beginners. Rebirth and karma are two of the biggies. Buddhist views on sex and celibacy are another. Maybe having a discussion like this can help provide some context and clear up misunderstandings of the kind which cause some people to reject Buddhism.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Adi »

Lazy_eye wrote:...
Again, just to be clear and avoid unnecessary digressions, what I have in mind here are practitioners who do not aspire to celibacy, in this lifetime at least.

In the interests of full disclosure, let me mention that the issue has been a conceptual and practical barrier for me; it caused me to discontinue investigating the dharma for a number of months as I came to feel that Buddhist goals were incompatible with my own.

Look forward to reading your thoughts.
I am sorry to hear you are having obstacles around this. I think there have already been here and in other threads some good answers and thoughts. I'll add just a few.

The Five Basic Vows* lay practitioners usually take are often translated similarly but differently depending on the tradition. For sex, it usually gets translated as something like "Do not commit sexual misconduct" or "No sexual misconduct" or something similar.

Well, for a monk or nun, that usually if almost always means no kind of sexual relations at all.

But for lay practitioners? If one is already married then it would usually seem best to keep sexual relations in that marriage. If one is single, then a wild sex life will most likely be an obstacle and involve committing misconduct since chasing after sex is rarely an honest pursuit. But it may not preclude dating people, developing a compassionate and loving relationship with them, including sex, if it does not involve misconduct such as lying, stealing, or other kinds of harm-bringing. It really involves being mindful, understanding the particular Buddhist tradition you are in, and being as clear, open and honest about it all, especially with one's teacher. The advice they give should be based on the individual student's situation. So for one it may be suggested to refrain from all sexual activity. For another it may be suggested that such a thing is ok given the proper circumstances.

In my experience it comes down to what is going to help you practice Dharma and what will distract you from it. The nice thing about Mahayana in general and Vajrayana in particular is that there are skillful means to deal with any situation.

So this is my thinking based on my own experience as an ordinary sentient being with impure vision who nevertheless claims to practice a little Dharma.

Adi

*It is not necessary to take any of these vows to be a Bhuddhist, which is usually only determined by whether or not one goes for refuge.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Zhen Li »

This might also be a bit different for different people.

Personally, I feel like controlling one's own sexual urges is really foundational, and if I can't do that, then my meditation is just really frustrating. But other people might feel differently.

Perhaps try different set ups for a number of months, and see how your mind is. Try a few months of celibacy.

As always, mindfulness meditation is useful, but corpse and impurity of the body meditation might help to change your perspective on things, or see things in a more realistic light. I'm personally of the belief that no sexual attraction is ever based on an accurate picture of the person you're attracted to.

I'm not sure if there's anything especially Mahayana one can do in this regard. But sometimes turning devotion from another person onto the Buddha can be useful. Redirect the mental energy and love.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Lazy_eye »

Zhen Li wrote: Perhaps try different set ups for a number of months, and see how your mind is. Try a few months of celibacy.

As always, mindfulness meditation is useful, but corpse and impurity of the body meditation might help to change your perspective on things, or see things in a more realistic light. I'm personally of the belief that no sexual attraction is ever based on an accurate picture of the person you're attracted to.

I'm not sure if there's anything especially Mahayana one can do in this regard. But sometimes turning devotion from another person onto the Buddha can be useful. Redirect the mental energy and love.
Thank you, Zhen Li -- I read some of your posts on the other thread and found them insightful. But as I said in the OP, I'm actually requesting advice or practical guidance for those who do not want to cultivate celibacy at this point.

For instance, a person in a relationship may not be able to just unilaterally "try a few months of celibacy". Not, at least, if he/she wants the relationship to continue. I think a lot of people would be understandably upset if their partner withdrew devotion from them and refocused it on the Buddha, or began to cultivate disenchantment regarding the relationship, etc. It sounds like a method for abandoning the world of relationships and becoming a home-leaver.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Tue May 13, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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daverupa
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by daverupa »

Lazy_eye wrote:So the question becomes how to balance the two without experiencing too much cognitive dissonance... suppose one wants to retain an ability to engage and be interested in the desire realm....
The intention of renunciation is important; nevermind sex, there's a problem for most people over not watching television and not eating overmuch - and, all of these sensual pursuits are off-target.
AN 9.41 wrote:Then Tapussa the householder went to Ven. Ananda and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Ananda: "Venerable Ananda, sir, we are householders who indulge in sensuality, delight in sensuality, enjoy sensuality, rejoice in sensuality. For us — indulging in sensuality, delighting in sensuality, enjoying sensuality, rejoicing in sensuality — renunciation seems like a sheer drop-off.

...

"So it is, Ananda. So it is. Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.'
You don't have to cultivate celibacy, but one should definitely cultivate renunciation, which involves moving away from sensuality generally.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by supermaxv »

I've read and reread this thread a couple times and I admit I'm not quite sure I understand what's going on. Where are you getting the idea that to practice buddhism as a lay person you have to be celibate? Especially in regards to a marriage, I certainly can't imagine a teacher would tell you to become celibate if that would harm your marriage (mine wouldn't!!!).

Also, this quote from Alexander Berzin re: the Secondary Bodhisattva Vows (http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Bodhisattvas' willingness to engage in inappropriate sexual acts when all else fails to help prevent someone from developing an extremely negative attitude toward the spiritual path of altruism raises an important point for married couples on the bodhisattva path to consider. Sometimes a couple becomes involved in Dharma and one of them, for instance the woman, wishing to be celibate, stops sexual relations with her husband when he is not of the same mind. He still has attachment to sex and takes her decision as a personal rejection. Sometimes the wife's fanaticism and lack of sensitivity drives her husband to blame his frustration and unhappiness on the Dharma. He leaves the marriage and turns his back on Buddhism with bitter resentment. If there is no other way to avoid his hostile reaction toward the spiritual path and the woman is keeping bodhisattva vows, she would do well to evaluate her compassion to determine if it is strong enough to allow her to have occasional sex with her husband without serious harm to her ability to help others. This is very relevant in terms of the tantric vows concerning chaste behavior.
uan
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by uan »

Lazy_eye wrote:
uan wrote: For those people who have angst surrounding whether to be celibate or not, I wonder to what extent they have teachers? It seems to me that part of the angst comes from people who do not have teachers and are trying to self-teach, or intuit, what practice they should be doing and when.
Uan, I am framing these questions more from the standpoint of someone who is exploring Buddhism but has not yet at the point where he or she would train with a teacher. Having a teacher represents a deeper level of commitment. There are several issues in Buddhism that can pose serious obstacles for beginners. Rebirth and karma are two of the biggies. Buddhist views on sex and celibacy are another. Maybe having a discussion like this can help provide some context and clear up misunderstandings of the kind which cause some people to reject Buddhism.
I'd agree that there are some serious obstacles to Buddhism for beginners (and at each step of the journey). But celibacy isn't one of them. That definitely is not Buddhism 101. Even rebirth and karma aren't that big a deal - we all start from where we are. It's usually not the masters/teachers in Buddhism that make rebirth (for instance) an issue, but rather other practitioners who insist on how Buddhism (or an aspiring Buddhist) must be or think.

Just starting out is actually the best time to find a good teacher in your area and talk with him or her. You don't have to become their student, join their sangha, or anything. But a one on one talk will cover far more ground than a year or two of "researching" and "learning".
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Challenge23 »

I would say that, though celibacy can be a good thing I don't think of it as the only way to accelerate Dharma practice.

Consider what you do for a living. If you have a job that doesn't harm others and gives you ample time off that can be used for Dharma practice. You can choose your hobbies. Make your hobbies "Dharma hobbies".

The thing to remember, in my opinion, is that no matter how you cut it the Buddhist path can be a pain in the rear for anyone.

For the monastic they have LOTS of time to develop themselves spiritually but they can have challenges based on deprivation, cohabitation, and so forth.

For the lay person they can arrange their lives so that they don't have to worry about food, shelter, etc., but they have much more of a time management issue.

To answer your questions in order.

1. What would be an appropriate goal or goals?
Answer: That's a tough one. That would depend on what you want to achieve, really.

2. What types of practice are appropriate?
Answer: I would say that you should consult your teacher. If you don't have a teacher that you can consult maybe take an hour a day in meditation and study, 10 minutes on the cushion, and the rest while sipping on your beverage of choice first thing in the morning. But it really would be better to consult your teacher.

3. Should one meditate? If so, what kind of meditation practices are most suitable?
Answer: I would say that the best bet would be to consult a qualified teacher(which I am most definitely not) but barring that, one or two 5-10 minute sessions.

4. When involved in sense pleasures, is it better to simply put the dharma aside for that time, or is there some "mindful" approach that can be brought into play?
Answer: I would say most definitely not but again, not a qualified teacher. For me I dedicate the pleasure I experience to the Teacher and the Three Jewels. If I fail to do that immediately I try to do it before bed at night.

5. Among the various Mahayana and Vajrayana schools, which offer the most possibilities for the (non-celibate) householder? Or are they all about the same?
Answer: I would say that it depends on how much you can/are willing to jiggle your schedule around. Most schools of Buddhism requires retreats for progress to be turbocharged but you can do quite well if you put in consistent daily practice.

6. How do you (if you are in this kind of situation) practice and what are your goals?
Answer: For me I am concentrating on the practices that have been recommended to me by my teacher(Calling the Lama from Afar, a very short Green Tara practice, and the Dudjom Tersar Ngondro). Another aspect of my practice is that I'm writing about Nirvana(not "how to get there" but "what it is" from the point of view of Thervadin, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism and/or why it is described the way it is).
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Admin_PC »

Lazy_eye wrote:But as I said in the OP, I'm actually requesting advice or practical guidance for those who do not want to cultivate celibacy at this point.

For instance, a person in a relationship may not be able to just unilaterally "try a few months of celibacy". Not, at least, if he/she wants the relationship to continue.
Your last couple sentences are pretty spot on for me.

Let me just say that not all schools of Mahayana thought are so unified on this issue as that other post might imply and you may want to consider one of the more lay-oriented paths.

1. What would be an appropriate goal or goals?

Improved conditioned habits (karma) at the very least. Stream-entry to Non-returner or beginning the Bodhisattva Bhumis would not be unreasonable. The practices below; whether Theravada or Mahayana, offer the possibility of birth in a realm where one will definitely attain realization - though some practitioners have been known to attain realization in this very life.

2. What types of practice are appropriate?

Whatever you've got time, access, interest, and karmic affinity for. Typically "mindfulness of the Buddha" practices were recommended for those who were not ready to give up family life. Goes back to the Suttas about Mahanama (Mahaanaama) in the Anguttara Nikaya & Samyutta Nikaya. Here's a vid of the Theravadan version of this practice, which is based around the 9 qualities of the Buddha. In Mahayana it focuses on mindfulness/recollection of the Buddha of Infinite Light - a Buddha who made vows to save all sentient beings, "Infinite Light" representing the wisdom of non-discrimination (bare awareness), usually flanked by the Bodhisattva of Compassion and the Bodhisattva of Great Might. There's also Tantra practice, which has different techniques for "transformation", but I'm not very knowledgeable on it.

3. Should one meditate? If so, what kind of meditation practices are most suitable?

"Mindfulness of the Buddha" is a sati/smrti (mindfulness) practice; "buddhanussati/buddhanusmrti" in fact, so it would fall under "sammā-sati/samyak-smṛti" (Right Mindfulness). It can lead to "buddhanussati samādhi/buddhanusmrti samādhi" which would be "sammā-samādhi/samyak-samādhi" (Right Concentration). Tantra practices are various forms of meditation from what I know.

4. When involved in sense pleasures, is it better to simply put the dharma aside for that time, or is there some "mindful" approach that can be brought into play?

Tantra has more techniques for this. It's recommended to perform "Mindfulness of the Buddha" whenever one is standing, sitting, walking, or lying down. It's recommended at various times throughout the day, like when one is about to eat, or especially when one is feeling upset for whatever reason.

5. Among the various Mahayana and Vajrayana schools, which offer the most possibilities for the (non-celibate) householder? Or are they all about the same?

Tantra typically offers Buddhahood in this very body. "Mindfulness of the Buddha" typically offers rebirth in a realm where one can attain realization; though there have been "mindfulness of the Buddha" practitioners who've displayed siddhis while still alive.

6. How do you (if you are in this kind of situation) practice and what are your goals?

I'm a family man without a whole bunch of free time or much interest in going forth. My goals are simple: get a handle on my anger, have a calm mind during hardships, be more grateful for all of the kindness I receive in my life, and do more to benefit others. My school's interpretation of the ultimate aims of practice is not really goal-oriented; goals imply striving and striving points the wrong direction. Instead, it's more about settlement in conviction and resolving of any doubts.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by KathyLauren »

I am confused about the assumptions in the first post. The questions you are asking seem to have little to do with celibacy / not celibacy. I think perhaps you are using "celibate" as a proxy for "monastic".

Your question then would be how can one practise as a layperson? Or perhaps, can one practise as a layperson. The answer to the second is unequivocally yes. A relevant scripture would be the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, and commentaries on it. The central theme in it is that Vimalakirti, a lay Buddhist, is more advanced in his practice and realization than many monastics and bodhisattvas.

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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by rory »

Well said Keith! I'm a layperson and spend quite a bit of time studying the Dharma, practicing etc...how do I do it? Well in my case I don't have children which is a huge plus in terms of free time. Secondly, how I spend my time: don't watch tv much (maybe 2 hrs per week) don't follow tweets nor do I waste time reading about popular culture on the internet (time suck). Believe me in this day and age with modern conveniences, a layperson has tons of time. It's what we do with it...
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The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Vajraprajnakhadga »

To the OP, I would recommend that you look into Vajrayana and/or Dzogchen for other Dharmic perspectives on sex. The path of renunciation is only one approach, not all of Buddhism.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Zhen Li »

Lazy_eye wrote:Thank you, Zhen Li -- I read some of your posts on the other thread and found them insightful. But as I said in the OP, I'm actually requesting advice or practical guidance for those who do not want to cultivate celibacy at this point.
To be honest, I don't see any problem then.

If you don't want to deal with passion, there's really nothing to suggest. Just practice as you see fit and keep having sexual relations at the same time. I don't really see where any problematising can take place, and I haven't really seen anyone on this thread problematise this issue/actual non-issue. If you really know your own aspiration, why ask others?

If you want to practice thinking that sex is unwholesome, and still have sex, then you'll have cognitive dissonance. All you do is simply blank out all the stuff in Buddhism related to sex. Keep having sex, and just regard everything else that is traditionally viewed as unwholesome to be unwholesome, and view sex as neutral.

Or you could only practice Dharma on Sundays, and have sex all the other days.
Lazy_eye wrote:For instance, a person in a relationship may not be able to just unilaterally "try a few months of celibacy". Not, at least, if he/she wants the relationship to continue. I think a lot of people would be understandably upset if their partner withdrew devotion from them and refocused it on the Buddha, or began to cultivate disenchantment regarding the relationship, etc. It sounds like a method for abandoning the world of relationships and becoming a home-leaver.
Yeah, if you're in a relationship it will make you a dead beat partner, but doesn't mean you'll leave your home. You can stay in your house, and not have sex in your house too. Or you can have sex inside your house while you stay in your house. Or you can leave your house, and have sex outside your house too. etc. :rolling:

Well, also, maybe consider how long your average relationship is. If you are married and not a frequent divorcee this might not work. But if you are not married, but your relationships don't tend to last long, then maybe expect that when you break up eventually, give yourself a breathing time of a few months or a year to see what celibacy is like.

I guess my main thinking here is, you don't know what you've never had. If you've never tried being celibate (I mean as an adult with real desires, being a kid doesn't count), then you may never know what it's like. It is, at least in my opinion, like jumping into a pool of cold water on a humid 40 C day. At first you may be timidly afraid of the cold, and a bit afraid to take the plunge, but once you do, it's so refreshing.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by Lazy_eye »

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions -- I am finding this discussion helpful and informative. I hope it can be a resource for others with similar questions.
supermaxv wrote:I've read and reread this thread a couple times and I admit I'm not quite sure I understand what's going on. Where are you getting the idea that to practice buddhism as a lay person you have to be celibate?
It depends on what is meant by "practicing Buddhism". If one's practice is oriented towards making merit, leading a happy and virtuous life, or gaining a fortune rebirth, then this is not an issue at all.

But it becomes an issue if one is aspiring to reach nirvana, because that path includes the abandonment of all sense craving.

Thank you for that Berzin quote, by the way.
KeithBC wrote:I am confused about the assumptions in the first post. The questions you are asking seem to have little to do with celibacy / not celibacy. I think perhaps you are using "celibate" as a proxy for "monastic".

Your question then would be how can one practise as a layperson? Or perhaps, can one practise as a layperson. The answer to the second is unequivocally yes. A relevant scripture would be the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, and commentaries on it. The central theme in it is that Vimalakirti, a lay Buddhist, is more advanced in his practice and realization than many monastics and bodhisattvas.
Hi Keith -- I didn't frame the question in terms of monastic and laity because laypeople can also be celibate. To say that a layperson can practice doesn't necessarily answer my question, because someone could follow all the practices of a monastic without ordaining, and still be called a layperson. The Vimalakirti example is ambiguous, because the sutra says that "he was celibate, yet manifested a wife and children." How do you interpret that?

So I really am interested in this one specific question: how do you practice a path of renunciation, designed to subdue and eventually eliminate sensual craving, while also being involved in activities that require the sustaining of sensual craving?

The answer that I usually give myself is that one can decide to work on renunciation as appropriate to the situation: that is, it may not be appropriate for a married person to eliminate sensual craving altogether, so one could instead work on avoiding sexual misconduct (fifth precept). Or one could work on other things such as anger, lack of compassion, etc. One can apply the Buddha's medicine to whatever areas of life need it at the time.

Or, from a Zen perspective, "emptying the mind according to circumstances."
PorkChop wrote:Improved conditioned habits (karma) at the very least. Stream-entry to Non-returner or beginning the Bodhisattva Bhumis would not be unreasonable.
Does one have to progress a certain distance along the arahat path before beginning the bhumis? How does this work exactly? I should know this, but don't. I understand rebirth in the pure land to be analogous to the non-returmer stage.
Whatever you've got time, access, interest, and karmic affinity for. Typically "mindfulness of the Buddha" practices were recommended for those who were not ready to give up family life. Goes back to the Suttas about Mahanama (Mahaanaama) in the Anguttara Nikaya & Samyutta Nikaya. Here's a vid of the Theravadan version of this practice, which is based around the 9 qualities of the Buddha. In Mahayana it focuses on mindfulness/recollection of the Buddha of Infinite Light - a Buddha who made vows to save all sentient beings, "Infinite Light" representing the wisdom of non-discrimination (bare awareness), usually flanked by the Bodhisattva of Compassion and the Bodhisattva of Great Might.
Possible to do a remembrance practice focused on a bodhisattva, for instance Guanyin?

1. What would be an appropriate goal or goals?
Answer: That's a tough one. That would depend on what you want to achieve, really.

2. What types of practice are appropriate?
Answer: I would say that you should consult your teacher. If you don't have a teacher that you can consult maybe take an hour a day in meditation and study, 10 minutes on the cushion, and the rest while sipping on your beverage of choice first thing in the morning. But it really would be better to consult your teacher.

3. Should one meditate? If so, what kind of meditation practices are most suitable?
Answer: I would say that the best bet would be to consult a qualified teacher(which I am most definitely not) but barring that, one or two 5-10 minute sessions.

6. How do you (if you are in this kind of situation) practice and what are your goals?
Answer: For me I am concentrating on the practices that have been recommended to me by my teacher(Calling the Lama from Afar, a very short Green Tara practice, and the Dudjom Tersar Ngondro). Another aspect of my practice is that I'm writing about Nirvana(not "how to get there" but "what it is" from the point of view of Thervadin, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism and/or why it is described the way it is).
Thanks for these suggestions -- I understand your reservations about not being a teacher; however, they are useful.
rory wrote: Believe me in this day and age with modern conveniences, a layperson has tons of time. It's what we do with it...
Yes, this is true, and one of the reasons why questions like the ones I put forward can come up. In situations where laypeople didn't have tons of time, it would be a moot point -- life circumstances would get in the way of "advanced practice."

Although I get the impression that during periods such as the T'ang and Song dynasties, and also certain eras in Japan, you did see a type of lay practitioner not too unlike what we see in the West today.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Wed May 14, 2014 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-celibacy

Post by theanarchist »

daverupa wrote:
You don't have to cultivate celibacy, but one should definitely cultivate renunciation, which involves moving away from sensuality generally.

Not from sensuality, but from indulging.
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