Joie de ... ?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rick
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by Rick »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:00 pm And this is why from my point of view, it’s a weak argument, because it confuses ‘not-clinging to one’s rising thoughts’ with having a a kind of cold-hearted indifference to events.
In my experience, letting thoughts-feelings-emotions arise and dissolve without attachment discourages them from blossoming. Which is the point of meditation, isn't it, since it's in that blossoming that one gets into trouble. But the blossoming also leads to less-used colors of the affective palette.
I think that what Buddhism offers is the ability to look at oneself in the ‘third-person’. You watch your own changing emotional state with the same awareness that you would have if you were the calm person watching someone else go through a rough patch.
Yes! And, again, in that 'clinical distance' parts of the palette are not (or rarely) reached.
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Rick
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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jimmi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:50 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:31 pm Sounds like the way to go: Minimize pain while leaving pleasure largely intact.
It maybe a way to go but is it the Buddhist way?
I guess minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure can be seen as 'playing the system.' Clearly that's not the right path for a monk. But maybe it is okay, even skillful for a lay Buddhist, in the sense that it will keep you happy and willing to stay with your dharma studies?
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by jimmi »

More like ‘playing with yourself’. Though there is nothing wrong with being happy, the purpose of dharma study is to clarify the ephemeral nature of both happiness and unhappiness and to make the resulting understanding a basis for one’s ongoing actions, thoughts, words.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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jimmi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:19 pm More like ‘playing with yourself’.
Yes!
Though there is nothing wrong with being happy, the purpose of dharma study is to clarify the ephemeral nature of both happiness and unhappiness and to make the resulting understanding a basis for one’s ongoing actions, thoughts, words.
With the goal of ending suffering, yes? Does not-suffering result in happiness?
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm Does not-suffering result in happiness?
It’s possible, I guess. But let’s say it doesn’t … is an end to suffering not sufficient?
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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jimmi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:02 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm Does not-suffering result in happiness?
It’s possible, I guess. But let’s say it doesn’t … is an end to suffering not sufficient?
The thought of it leaves me underwhelmed, unless I happen to be in the throes of intense suffering in which case it sounds miraculous. As for the reality of it, well, being a non-enlightened one, I'd have to guess, and I'd probably be wrong. The world would surely be a kinder and gentler place if humanity didn't suffer, though I'd wager it would also be less interesting.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:00 pm
jimmi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:02 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm Does not-suffering result in happiness?
It’s possible, I guess. But let’s say it doesn’t … is an end to suffering not sufficient?
The thought of it leaves me underwhelmed, unless I happen to be in the throes of intense suffering in which case it sounds miraculous. As for the reality of it, well, being a non-enlightened one, I'd have to guess, and I'd probably be wrong. The world would surely be a kinder and gentler place if humanity didn't suffer, though I'd wager it would also be less interesting.
Dukkha is the word usually translated as “suffering”. Broadly speaking, it refers to general restlessness and dissatisfaction, always wanting something else, a lack of contentment, as well as the pain of birth, old age, sickness, and death.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

jimmi wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:02 pm
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm Does not-suffering result in happiness?
It’s possible, I guess. But let’s say it doesn’t … is an end to suffering not sufficient?
It amounts to the same thing.
Either you have peace of mind, or you don’t.
“Happiness” is just the word used to refer to a mind free of craving.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm
Though there is nothing wrong with being happy, the purpose of dharma study is to clarify the ephemeral nature of both happiness and unhappiness and to make the resulting understanding a basis for one’s ongoing actions, thoughts, words.
With the goal of ending suffering, yes? Does not-suffering result in happiness?
Yes, of course. This sort of happiness is much deeper and more satisfying than mundane happiness.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm With the goal of ending suffering, yes? Does not-suffering result in happiness?
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/wp-cont ... a-01-1.pdf


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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Does Buddhism value enjoying life?
In the Shravakayana, no.
But then, depending on what you mean by “enjoying life”,
In the Mahayana, yes.
In the Vajrayana, it’s required to love life unconditionally. (Without conditions since the 1st Noble Truth is still operational.)
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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According to Sravasti Dhammika Buddha recognizes several kinds happiness that are quite normal in life :

"Some examples of worldly happiness which the Buddha considered legitimate and worthwhile are the happiness of ownership (atthisukha), the happiness of wealth (bhogasukha) and the happiness of freedom from debt (ananasukha, A.II,67-8). The sense of achievement, from excelling in one's chosen profession and making a good living out of it can make one very happy (D.I,51). On a higher level, some of the things conducive to spiritual happiness include practising the Precepts (D.I,69-70), being just (A.I,294), calming the senses (D.I,70), thinking about and rejoicing in one's own good deeds (Dhp.16), taming the mind (Dhp.35), being able to love despite being surrounded by those who hate (Dhp.197) and being at peace (Dhp.202). The highest and most refined happiness comes from attaining enlightenment (Dhp.203).

Concerning the two levels of happiness, the Buddha advised: `If by giving up worldly happiness one can attain the higher happiness the wise person should do so, seeing it as a more enriching happiness'(Dhp.290). Happiness has an important role in meditation in that it assists in the development of a stable, effortless concentration. The Buddha said: `The mind that is happy becomes concentrated'(sukhino cittam samàdhiyati, D.I,73). See Progress in Meditation."

This is based on Sravakayana scriptures
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Just look up “Ajahn Brahm happy” on youtube and you’ll see how Theravada isn’t all doom and gloom.

The Buddha often talked about how a life of meditation is a joyful life! It’s suffering that’s the killer.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:28 pm “Happiness” is just the word used to refer to a mind free of craving.
Maybe this is true from the Buddhist perspective. But in the world at large there are, I think, different types of happiness. Some people enjoy craving, find it exciting and energizing and feel happy when doing it.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:46 am
Rick wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:47 pm Does not-suffering result in happiness?
Yes, of course. This sort of happiness is much deeper and more satisfying than mundane happiness.
I think the happiness that comes from not-suffering is *different* than the happiness that comes from, say, neurotic pleasures (which, by definition, involve suffering). But deeper and more satisfying? Sometimes, for sure. But always? I dunno ... Never underestimate the power of dysfunctional joy!
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I think the difference is that on the one hand, there is the usual situation where there is pleasure or happiness (and likewise misery and sadness) derived from clinging to the sensations triggered by various temporary phenomena…

…and on the other hand, there is a situation of genuine peace of mind, free from craving and attachment and nagging dissatisfaction.

Ordinarily, people only experience the first type of situation, and their emotions toss them about uncontrollably.

But Buddhist practice develops the second type of situation, which is actually more of a solid or stable greater context in which the arising of temporary phenomena plays itself out.

So, one still experiences the joy and sadness of samsaric existence, but one is firmly rooted, and not controlled by these emotional experiences.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:00 am
Does Buddhism value enjoying life?
In the Shravakayana, no.
But then, depending on what you mean by “enjoying life”,
In the Mahayana, yes.
In the Vajrayana, it’s required to love life unconditionally.
Maybe this gets more at what I'm trying to get at in this thread:

Does Buddhism value human life as anything more than a vehicle for exiting the cycle of rebirth?

Is there, for Buddhists, value and dignity and nobility in life apart from any consideration of enlightenment?

Or is life seen as valuable only as a means to an end ... and, okay, sure, you might as well enjoy it while you're there, since ... why not?

Addition: The quote in the next posting is a good start to an answer to my questions here.
Last edited by Rick on Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:34 am "Some examples of worldly happiness which the Buddha considered legitimate and worthwhile are the happiness of ownership (atthisukha), the happiness of wealth (bhogasukha) and the happiness of freedom from debt (ananasukha, A.II,67-8). The sense of achievement, from excelling in one's chosen profession and making a good living out of it can make one very happy (D.I,51). On a higher level, some of the things conducive to spiritual happiness include practising the Precepts (D.I,69-70), being just (A.I,294), calming the senses (D.I,70), thinking about and rejoicing in one's own good deeds (Dhp.16), taming the mind (Dhp.35), being able to love despite being surrounded by those who hate (Dhp.197) and being at peace (Dhp.202). The highest and most refined happiness comes from attaining enlightenment (Dhp.203).

Concerning the two levels of happiness, the Buddha advised: `If by giving up worldly happiness one can attain the higher happiness the wise person should do so, seeing it as a more enriching happiness'(Dhp.290).
Yay! I'm relieved to learn that the Buddha did recognize and value worldly happiness. Dividing happiness into worldly/lower and spiritual/higher makes sense to me, similarly to how the Two Truths makes sense to me, because it doesn't deny 'the world' ... which is where I live most of the time.
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Re: Joie de ... ?

Post by Aemilius »

Thanks Rick! Bhante Dhammika writes about Joy (sanskr. Priti; pali Piti):

"Joy (piti) is a feeling of subtle and refined happiness and is similar to it. In Buddhist psychology, joy is seen as the result of virtuous living, a sign of successful meditation and as an indication of growing spiritual maturity. Many different types of joy are identified in Buddhism. Sympathetic joy, for example, is the ability to be able to rejoice in the success and happiness of others. When the sage Bàvari merely heard the word `Buddha'he experienced exaltation (udagga), jubilation (vedajàta) and elation (attamàna, Sn.995). Buddhàlambanapiti is the calm joy one can feel while contemplating a statue of the Buddha. In the Visuddhimagga, joy is categorized according to its intensity and the effect it can have on the body. Thus there is minor joy (khuddikà piti), momentary joy (khaõikà piti), showering joy (okkantikà piti), uplifting joy (ubbegà piti) and pervading joy (pharaõà piti, Vism.143).

Some people are cautious of joy, thinking that it might lead to attachment, but Buddhaghosa made the interesting comment on this matter: `It is called joy because it is to be enjoyed'(Vis.143). Joy is an important part of the jhànas and one of the seven limbs that lead to enlightenment (D.II,79)."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Rick
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Re: Joie de ... ?

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Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 am In the Visuddhimagga, joy is categorized according to its intensity and the effect it can have on the body. Thus there is minor joy (khuddikà piti), momentary joy (khaõikà piti), showering joy (okkantikà piti), uplifting joy (ubbegà piti) and pervading joy (pharaõà piti, Vism.143).
I shouldda known there would be a list! :tongue:
Joy is an important part of the jhànas and one of the seven limbs that lead to enlightenment
There ya go. QED, I'm allowed to en-joy. (Though I'm not sure watching a good Halloween horror movie would count? :popcorn: )
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